Intonation question ...

[RustyAxe]

I've gotten my new (to me) axe about the way I want it, but I have a remaining issue that perhaps someone here can shed some light upon.

I've adjusted all the strings intonation, and everything sounds "right" all up and down the neck, and open chords are great ... but ... on the G string, especially on the 2nd fret, but on other low frets to a lesser extent, it plays sharp. It's enough that an open D chord (or any chord that frets that string near the nut) sounds ugly. I'm careful not to bend the string as I fret it, so that's not the issue. I've noticed that if I pay close attention to my playing technique and fret the string only very lightly it plays right where it should. So, I'm surmising that for one reason or another the string stretches excessively when I push it all the way to the fretboard.

The question (finally, huh!). What could be the cause? I'm thinking the fret height is OK since the other strings are fine. The frets are like new, no wear at all, and silky smooth. Perhaps the nut slot is too shallow?
Any suggestions?

I'd take it to a pro for set up, but my last experience with a local fellow who calls himself a luthier has made me leary of mom & pop shops. Can anyone recommend someone in central Connecticut?

Thanks for your replies!

[reeced]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

Perhaps the nut slot is too shallow?
Any suggestions?

It could well be that. One easy way to check - fret the string on third fret i.e between the second and third frets, then check the string gap directly under the first fret - you should just be able to slide a piece of paper between fret and string. If it's too high, you could use a fine file or blade to deepen the slot - just keep checking so you don't go too low. I usually do it until the string just "grabs" the paper.

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by reeced

It could well be that. One easy way to check - fret the string on third fret i.e between the second and third frets, then check the string gap directly under the first fret - you should just be able to slide a piece of paper between fret and string. If it's too high, you could use a fine file or blade to deepen the slot - just keep checking so you don't go too low. I usually do it until the string just "grabs" the paper.

Thanks for the tip, I'll check it out. I'm not a luthier by any stretch of anyone's imagination, and slotting a nut intimidates me (just a few thousandths too deep or wide and you're toast ). But ... the first time I wielded a soldering iron (many years ago) I was scared, too ... got over that. I put a new 3-way switch into this guitar just a few minutes ago.

Thanks again. If I get it fixed I'll be sure to post the results here in the forum. (Doesn't it annoy you when someone has a problem, asks for advice, then never returns to report the final solution? It does me!)

[202dy]

Once a string is fretted the nut has no bearing on pitch. Since this is a used guitar, how is the fret wear? If there is some wear in the frets the spot where the string contacts the fret may have shifted from TDC. F2 on the G string gets a lot of use in several often used open chords. If the former owner spent all of his time in open position this could be the problem.

[Flyin' Brian]

Originally Posted by 202dy

Once a string is fretted the nut has no bearing on pitch.

I'm not a luthier but I don't agree with this. If the nut is cut too shallow, the string has to stretch further to get to the first few frets. This extra stretch tightens the string and will cause it to play sharp.

[Rosewood]

Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian

I'm not a luthier but I don't agree with this. If the nut is cut too shallow, the string has to stretch further to get to the first few frets. This extra stretch tightens the string and will cause it to play sharp.

For the first few frets that is absolutely true. Also the plain third string is the loudest string usually which makes it ugly sounding. Add that to the first position bar chords which the third string is the major 3rd note(slightly sharp) and it really gets ugly.

[ChrisB]

You could test if the nut is too high by placing a capo on the first fret and playing some chords. If the guitar sounds fine then its likely the nut is the problem...

[EADGBE]

It may be a bad string. Sometimes strings are bad straight out of the package. How old are the strings? Also what did you use to intonate the guitar?

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by EADGBE

It may be a bad string. Sometimes strings are bad straight out of the package. How old are the strings? Also what did you use to intonate the guitar?

I used my ear (and a damn good ear it is, too ... ). I have brandy-new Daddario XL110 (lights) on it now.

Just to keep things rolling, I brought to a local guy who came highly recommended. He was happy with the setup and intonation (but will scope it out with an electronic tuner). He noted the very slight wear on the second fret g-string (I noticed it too and pointed it out to him), but says that's nothing to worry about, not even enough to bother touching up. Like the previous poster, he suspects strings, and we'll try a set of XL110W (3rd string wound) and he'll check the setup and intonation again (it shouldn't change much if at all ... only the G string is .001" bigger than what I have on now). He's quite sure it'll take care of things.

Anyhow, I'll get the guitar back tomorrow (overnight service! that's unheard of these days!) and it'll cost me $20 including the string (he's just gonna replace the one for now, the rest are literally brand new with less than 30 minutes on 'em).

This guy really impressed me with his knowledge. He's in the back corner of a small music shop, but his is a separate business. Guitars on every wall, some great old Gibby's, Gretsch, Guild, acoustics and electrics. Violins, and some foreign stuff I don't even recognize. A work bench that's strewn with parts. Ashtrays everywhere, and he puffs most of the time he's working. I don't care, so long as his work his good (and I'm assured that it is by many local players).

He gave me a Recording King acoustic, their three hundred dollar bottom of the line model (nice looking and well made though) to play while he was on the phone. The thing played like butter and sounded better than the Taylor 110 and 210 at GC. Actually, better than most guitars I've played under a grand. "See what a decent guitar and a great setup can do?" he asked with a smile. I think Tom is gonna fix me up. I'll let y'all know.

[carbz]

As far as I am concerned there is no way to get perfect intonation in every position of the neck. Iv'e played new guitars with Buzz Feiten systems and they still sound out of tune in certain positions. Unfortunately thats the way it is.

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by carbz

As far as I am concerned there is no way to get perfect intonation in every position of the neck. Iv'e played new guitars with Buzz Feiten systems and they still sound out of tune in certain positions. Unfortunately thats the way it is.

You're right, of course ... perfection is elusive. But there's a point where good enough is good enough (most ears can't hear a few cents off pitch) but there's also the point where it's unacceptable to a musician's ear.

I chuckle at the folks I see at the guitar stores who sit and play for 5 minutes or more on a guitar that isn't even nearly in tune. I suppose the concept of intonation is wasted on them ...

[walterw]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

I'm surmising that for one reason or another the string stretches excessively when I push it all the way to the fretboard.

all the way to the fret (good) or all the way to the fretboard (bad)?

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

he suspects strings, and we'll try a set of XL110W (3rd string wound) and he'll check the setup and intonation again (it shouldn't change much if at all ... only the G string is .001" bigger than what I have on now). He's quite sure it'll take care of things.

sounds like he knows exactly what he's doing, in that you're squeezing too hard, and a plain G will go sharp more than the other strings. the wound G will behave completely different, even if it is the same size. it will play like an acoustic or a jazz box, but won't deflect much at all. (forget about getting much more than 1/2 step bends out of it.)

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by walterw

all the way to the fret (good) or all the way to the fretboard (bad)?

sounds like he knows exactly what he's doing, in that you're squeezing too hard, and a plain G will go sharp more than the other strings. the wound G will behave completely different, even if it is the same size. it will play like an acoustic or a jazz box, but won't deflect much at all. (forget about getting much more than 1/2 step bends out of it.)

To the fretboard, like I said. Right, I understand that I can use less pressure and the string will sound on key. But I don't play that way without having to be very, very aware of it, which stifles my creative juices (maybe I should keep any discussion of my juices to myself, eh?) ... been playing acoustic only for the last 35 years. As far bending, we'll see how that works out. Tom asked me specifically if I did a lot of bending. I gotta say, everything about the guy inspired confidence. I think he's the real deal (not like another local guy who owns a music shop and calls himself a luthier, who couldn't mount an endpin jack in my Breedlove ... so I did it myself ... and didn't want to install a new switch and pot in my hollow body electric because he'd have to work through the f-hole ... so I did it myself through the pickup hole).

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by ChrisB

You could test if the nut is too high by placing a capo on the first fret and playing some chords. If the guitar sounds fine then its likely the nut is the problem...

+100,000,000

Capo at the first fret, downtune a half step until you are tuned to concert pitch G while capoed, then check the open G with the 13th fret to see if it intonates. If your nut slot is not cut deep enough, the intonation will likely be off and the note at the 13th will play slightly flat (assuming intonation is ok when you compare open G to the fretted 12th fret G). My vote is that it will require deepening the nut slot.

[RustyAxe]

What a wealth of useful information this forum is! You guys rock! (or jazz, or bluegrass, or fusion, or funk!)