Dmin7b5 and G7b9 scale choices

[JimmyD]

What are some of the most popular scale choices over these chords? I believe these chords to be somehow tied together. but I'm missing a piece of the puzzle.

I sometimes use the Dm7b5 arp to lead into a G7 lick and all is well. That's why i say their related.

Thx,
Jim

[lhallam]

A couple of scales that work OK:

G# diminished

G whole tone

G lydian b7.

G A B C# D E F

G diminished whole

G Ab Bb B Db Eb F

You can also play a D locrian over the Dm7b5 and go into variations on the G scales above.

Your ear should always be the final choice.

[Dog Boy]

C harmonic minor
B flat minor pentatonic
A flat Melodic minor

Personally I'd pass on the G whole tone...it has a natural 9. Although it has tendancy to resolve to a C tonality. Or whatever.

[lhallam]

Originally Posted by Dog Boy

C harmonic minor
B flat minor pentatonic
A flat Melodic minor

Personally I'd pass on the G whole tone...it has a natural 9. Although it has tendancy to resolve to a C tonality. Or whatever.

Agreed, how about B whole tone?

Kidding aside, the final say is how it sounds in context of the line.

[Tom Gross]

Originally Posted by lhallam

Kidding aside, the final say is how it sounds in context of the line.

Re-read this line.


and I would add, in the context of the song.

..ask your self a few questions:
- Where is the song going?
- How does it resolve?
- Is it a minor ii-V-i?
- Does it function as a minor ii-V, but then go elswhere instead of resolving to some form of C minor 7 or 9?
- What are the lyrics of the song or the song upon which the changes are based? Is it a happy story? Sad? What?
- How "out" are the rest of the changes & the bridge? Is the G7alt the farthest out (most tension) of the whole tune? Or is it right in the flow?

I'll leave the scales to the more edumacated ones here, but some of my favorite notes are:

over the Dmin7b5: E, G#, A
over the G7b9: B, Ab, E

[tvegas99]

D-7b5- play Ebmajor (ionian) or F melodic minor

G7- play C harmonic minor or Abmelodic minor

curious, are you headed for C minor, C major or something else?

[JimmyD]

Originally Posted by tvegas99

D-7b5- play Ebmajor (ionian) or F melodic minor

G7- play C harmonic minor or Abmelodic minor

curious, are you headed for C minor, C major or something else?

Most of the time I've encountered this its been used as a minor ii-V. I'm still weaker then I want to be improvising over this progression.

I use the Ab melodic minor over a lot of 7ths, but I gotta shed way more on the minor 7b5.

Thx everyone for the suggestions,
Jim

[Tag]

Originally Posted by JimmyD

I gotta shed way more on the minor 7b5.

Thx everyone for the suggestions,
Jim

No you dont.

Play the D-7b5 as F-7 (6). (F dorian) SOOO Treat it like a -IV\V\I progression. In other words, just treat it like F-7\G7\C-7. F-7 and D-7b5 have the same function, so they are interchangable. You can also play AbMaj7/G7/C-7. Again, Abmaj7 is the same function as D-7b5 and F-7. They are all related, and are interchangeable. I could go on and on, but this is where you should start. You can obviously play well over F-7, so just forget D-7b5. It is the SAME. Listen to benson, Coltrane, Parker,Stitt etc etc etc. This is what they ALL do. They are among the greatest players who have lived.

[jzucker]

Originally Posted by tvegas99

D-7b5- play Ebmajor (ionian) or F melodic minor

G7- play C harmonic minor or Abmelodic minor

curious, are you headed for C minor, C major or something else?

The simplest choice is C harmonic minor. There's no single answer. It depends on what other chords are surrounding these ones.

[trazan]

Go bananas on that G7b9 A fun quality with altered 7th's is that they can take any note quite well, as long as you resolve gracefully to the tonic. So try going wild and be prepared to slide into C.

I.e: F melodic minor - bananas - C min

[KRosser]

Originally Posted by jzucker

The simplest choice is C harmonic minor. There's no single answer. It depends on what other chords are surrounding these ones.

Of course, a big +1

I always read these threads here where people really go off on these harmonic analyses, and I think that's cool...

But -

A chord progression is not a song. If I do the melody to "All The Things You Are" reharmonized into oblivion, it's still "All The Things You Are". If I do the chord progression to "All the Things..." but a different melody, it's a different song.

Depending on what the song is, where in the song it appears, and what else has been going on, I may not play anything there. I might play C harmonic minor, or any number of dimished or altered things. I might hang on one D for the whole turnaround. I might play nothing but F#'s and C#'s. I might play an entire chromatic scale. I might just let the guitar feed back for two bars.

I guess I'm just saying - sometimes I wish the discussion of improvisation was not so much on the minutia of one turnaround figure, but on the bigger picture aspects of what really make it work. There've been dozens of scales and figures detailed here for this simple ii-V. Great. Any of them will be fine. Now what are you gonna do? 'Cause that information alone is not enough.

I'm reminded of an old story - maybe apocryphal - about Lester Young, where someone put a chord chart in front of him at a session and told him to take a solo over it. He told them he couldn't take a solo unless they gave him the melody.

Discuss...(or not?)

[pinner]

They are tied together as they are a minor ii V progression.
i C minor 7th
ii7b5 D minor 7th b5
V7b9 G7b9

You could just play the notes of c minor but need to raise the Bb to B during the G7b9 to recognize the major third in the chord.

c minor scale C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
dmin7b5 D F Ab C
G7b9 G B D F Ab

[WahmBoomAh]

You see ! That`s what i`m sayin ... TGP ain`t no HC .... go get `em !

[KRosser]

Originally Posted by JimmyD

I sometimes use the Dm7b5 arp to lead into a G7 lick and all is well. That's why i say their related.

I say they're related because they both occur naturally when you harmonize a C harmonic minor scale in 7th chords.

[yZe]

Just make sure you resolve your scalar ideas on chord tones on strong beats (at first)