What DO Vintage 30's sound like?

[MGSchindel]

Originally Posted by Randy

Interesting. I bought a quad of V30's when they first came out in the mid 80's and they remain one of the smoothest, warmest speakers I've ever owned. I'm sure 25 years of punishment didn't hurt, but they've always sounded great to me. I never understood the 'mid peak' thing that some people complain about... this explains a lot.

I hear ya! I stuck a 2009 Marshall 1960AV with its stock T3897 Marshall Vintage speakers right alongside a 2008 Bogner 4x12 with its stock Celestion V30 chinese T3409 speakers. Both cabs were placed lying on their sides, directly on the floor. Using a Marshall 2203 head with presence 6, Bass 7, Mids 2, Treble 4, Volume 4, Preamp 9, pushed with an overdrive pedal, I can tell you that both in the room and at the mic, the Marshall speakers were smooth but bright, very clear, tight, thick in the low mids, and almost scooped due to their bright top end and solid lows. They also feel harder and like they have less of their own slight break-up. The Celestion V30 speakers by direct comparision had less lows, a more rounded top end, a softer overall sound, slightly blurry low mids, and a compressed, chesty mid-to-upper midrange. The effect was a less scooped speaker that is a bit darker overall, but with accentuated mids in the 700hz range that exaggerated their fizzy mid spike, and I will admit I always find them a bit fatiguing due to that mid spike even though they have much less treble than the marshall speakers. They also feel a bit looser and like they add a little bit of their own break-up to the sound.

Some guys really dig the marshall speaker after it breaks in well and warms up, and they used to use those for thrash metal due to its clear, bright, scooped, less fizzy nature (like on some old Exodus albums). But some guys hate that speaker, calling it piercing or brash, and prefer the warm, washy mids of the smoother chinese model, especially with a strat and especially with lower gain settings, where the chinese speaker's extra mid-hump, rolled back highs, and extra dirt helps fill out the sound very well, with some amps.

The louder you turn up, the less subtle the differences become, too.

Horses for courses.

[GT100]

Originally Posted by MGSchindel

I have several early 80's G12-80s with the 444 cones and vented voice coils, out of old Marshall 1982B cabs, and agree they are a fine and brutal, tight, punchy metal speaker, like a G12-65 on steriods but with more low mids, and a much higher, extended, bright top end. Very good for some metal sounds for sure, and I seem to recall looking at an old Anthrax tour book in the late 80's where these celestions were listed as being in some of their touring cabs. These are not so good for other sounds like warm, fat classic rock lead tones, due to their bright highs. Some of mine:



I'm not a big V30 fan, and find many other models of celestions and eminence I own quads of to be much more to my liking. I wanted, however, to post this thread because I simply noticed that some V30's can sound worse with some amps than other V30s, and I started noticing they had several different model #s, were not all made the same, and sounded different. I also saw tons of confusing misinformation all over the web about these discrepancies, almost all of which was wild speculation, and most of which is wrong. I tried to make a comprehensive post here that is more factual than what's out there elsewhere on the web.

I have those in an old Marshall 4x12.
I'm currently mixing them with 2 Vintage 30 (UK made if that matters) with great resuts for both clean and high gain...

Lloyd

[jcj]

Originally Posted by MGSchindel

I hear ya! I stuck a 2009 Marshall 1960AV with its stock T3897 Marshall Vintage speakers right alongside a 2008 Bogner 4x12 with its stock Celestion V30 chinese T3409 speakers. Both cabs were placed lying on their sides, directly on the floor. Using a Marshall 2203 head with presence 6, Bass 7, Mids 2, Treble 4, Volume 4, Preamp 9, pushed with an overdrive pedal, I can tell you that both in the room and at the mic, the Marshall speakers were smooth but bright, very clear, tight, thick in the low mids, and almost scooped due to their bright top end and solid lows. They also feel harder and like they have less of their own slight break-up. The Celestion V30 speakers by direct comparision had less lows, a more rounded top end, a softer overall sound, slightly blurry low mids, and a compressed, chesty mid-to-upper midrange. The effect was a less scooped speaker that is a bit darker overall, but with accentuated mids in the 700hz range that exaggerated their fizzy mid spike, and I will admit I always find them a bit fatiguing due to that mid spike even though they have much less treble than the marshall speakers. They also feel a bit looser and like they add a little bit of their own break-up to the sound.

Some guys really dig the marshall speaker after it breaks in well and warms up, and they used to use those for thrash metal due to its clear, bright, scooped, less fizzy nature (like on some old Exodus albums). But some guys hate that speaker, calling it piercing or brash, and prefer the warm, washy mids of the smoother chinese model, especially with a strat and especially with lower gain settings, where the chinese speaker's extra mid-hump, rolled back highs, and extra dirt helps fill out the sound very well, with some amps.

The louder you turn up, the less subtle the differences become, too.

Horses for courses.

The only comment I would make about the experiment above, is that the Bogner cabs usually have batting inside; tends to soften and darken everything. At least in my experience.

Cool thread, btw. I remember talking with Steve Fryette about this a few years back. It was eye opening, for sure.

[borisson]

Originally Posted by Primakurtz

Thanks for these observations - very helpful.

I did an interesting, unintended experiment last night:
Due to excessive trading and bad timing, I had two Mesa Recto 4 X 12" slant cabs at rehearsal last night. One has the stock Mesa V30's. In the other were 2 - C90's and 2 - WGS Retro 30's. I have been experimenting with this cab, trying to get a more pleasing sound, without all that "nasty V30 mid-spike and fizzyness". The non-V30 cab sounds great when I play by myself - full, warm, clear.

When the band started playing, my non-V30 cab seemed to disappear. I kept raising the mids on my amp, to no avail. Frustrated, I switched into the V30-equipped cab. Suddenly, I could hear myself, and it sounded great in the overall mix. I could even turn down a bit, and still hear myself clearly. No fizz, no spike - just great guitar tone.

I guess those guys are right - V30's work great, for certain jobs.

same experience...

[mcdes]

ok, so what i dont get, is why they are called vintage 30's, when they are 60 watts! is it that it rolls off the tongue better????? school me!

[stratotastic]

Originally Posted by Primakurtz

Thanks for these observations - very helpful.

I did an interesting, unintended experiment last night:
Due to excessive trading and bad timing, I had two Mesa Recto 4 X 12" slant cabs at rehearsal last night. One has the stock Mesa V30's. In the other were 2 - C90's and 2 - WGS Retro 30's. I have been experimenting with this cab, trying to get a more pleasing sound, without all that "nasty V30 mid-spike and fizzyness". The non-V30 cab sounds great when I play by myself - full, warm, clear.

When the band started playing, my non-V30 cab seemed to disappear. I kept raising the mids on my amp, to no avail. Frustrated, I switched into the V30-equipped cab. Suddenly, I could hear myself, and it sounded great in the overall mix. I could even turn down a bit, and still hear myself clearly. No fizz, no spike - just great guitar tone.

I guess those guys are right - V30's work great, for certain jobs.

Yup. That's why anytime I hear anyone say they're "harsh" or "icepicky" I immediately assume they're an alone home player. That "icepick" comes in real handy when you're actually making music with other people.

[harryjmic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWK0s...layer_embedded

This should cover just about everything. It's amazing how dark it is to me compared to many of the other speakers tested.

[MGSchindel]

Originally Posted by mcdes

ok, so what i dont get, is why they are called vintage 30's, when they are 60 watts! is it that it rolls off the tongue better????? school me!

Good point, and yes it is, and always has been, confusing.

They are not 60 watts, they are more like 65 watts, per Celestion.

I am advised they are called "Vintage 30" for tonal reasons, not wattage reasons. In part, it is because Celestion, back in the mid 80's, was originally chasing a bright, "vintage" alnico tone for Marshall, for a reissue-style speaker (Marshall is good at reissuing stuff that never existed LOL), but also using the large 50oz ceramic magnet of the long discontinued, vintage G12H30, to give extended highs and lows and better power handling to this new creation. As a result of originally using a 444 cone, 50oz G12H30 magnet, some of the same construction and parts of the G12H30, the tone is hence somewhat and in some ways perhaps comparable to a late 70's Celestion G12H 30 55hz. Hence "Vintage" and "30", although NOTE THAT Marshall originally opted to just call these speakers the "Vintage," and still does so to this day, since I do not believe they felt it sounded so much like a G12H30 themselves (me neither), and probably wanted to avoid confusion. Only Celestion labels and sells this speaker to its clients as a Vintage "30", and at the time they had started that, I do not believe they had a reissue G12H30 in the market, or plans for one, so "30" popped up on the sticker.....Draw your own conclusions on that, I guess...

[MGSchindel]

Originally Posted by jcj

The only comment I would make about the experiment above, is that the Bogner cabs usually have batting inside; tends to soften and darken everything. At least in my experience.

A fair point, but FWIW I pulled the batting out of my Bogner shells (except for my 1x12 cube) back when I bought them, so the batting is not a factor here.

[Flameout12]

Originally Posted by MGSchindel

There's a reason guys like Andy Sneap, when producing a slickly-produced metal album, will drop a re-amped guitar tone right through an old Mesa Recto 4x12 with V30 T4335's....The way it is voiced in the mids, it falls right into the mix with the least amount of post eq'ing, and 80% of the homework is done. No extra bass blurring the kick drums to roll off, not much mid-fizz to notch out, and no harsh treble to compete with vocals and cymbals. Guys that don't even like V30s sometimes wind up having some producer re-amp their guitar sound into V30s just to make the mix more professional and balanced, like it or not.

This is a nugget of truth for those playing live and recording and thanks for posting this. Of course, people in the recording business already know this. A 3rd element to this (and one that I have to deal with) is what speakers do you mike for live performances v. what you use to hear yourself? One might use something like T-75s for their playing and a V-30 for miking, etc.

[AudioWonderland]

Originally Posted by MGSchindel

There's a reason guys like Andy Sneap, when producing a slickly-produced metal album, will drop a re-amped guitar tone right through an old Mesa Recto 4x12 with V30 T4335's....The way it is voiced in the mids, it falls right into the mix with the least amount of post eq'ing, and 80% of the homework is done. No extra bass blurring the kick drums to roll off, not much mid-fizz to notch out, and no harsh treble to compete with vocals and cymbals. Guys that don't even like V30s sometimes wind up having some producer re-amp their guitar sound into V30s just to make the mix more professional and balanced, like it or not.

Then again, some guys only like Marshall 1960AV/BV cabs for live use, and think the Mesas are too buried in the live mix. Those Vintages can slice thru the mix, and the awesome din of a live metal gig, like a flamethrower through tissue paper. I've heard some early Marshall Vintage speakers in the studio, and at some live gigs, that were so bright, their top end rivaled or even surpassed the wicked, gnarly top end spike of cranked G12T-75s.

It doesn't make anything more "professional". That's nonsense. All that proves is he gets paid to make everything sound the same. More power to him for putting food on the table but I have never understood the love fest over this guy. People were recording amazing guitar sounds long before V30's or Sneap.

[Flameout12]

Originally Posted by AudioWonderland

It doesn't make anything more "professional". That's nonsense. All that proves is he gets paid to make everything sound the same. More power to him for putting food on the table but I have never understood the love fest over this guy. People were recording amazing guitar sounds long before V30's or Sneap.

Wow...kinda harsh there dude. Technique is technique and if that's what someone uses to get their sound then it is what it is.

[Howie]

In the past 15 years people have tried to turn the guitar into a bass. The guitar is a midrange instrument.

[cram]

Thanks for posting the info in the thread.
I've just purchased one v30 and I'll have to compare against your documentation here.

[Troy T. Blues]

Thanks for posting this great info MGSchindel.

I recently acquired an early ca. 1982 Marshall 2x12 1936 cab (more shallow in depth than the ones that most people are familar with). The cab came with 1996 V30's - T3904 (stock speakers would've been G12-65's).

I compared that cab to the G12T-75's speakers that are in my JCM800 4212 combo. I'm sure the cab has alot to do with the overall tone, but the V30's sound great. Definitely a more of a rolled off high end, but it has such a rich, sweet tone...definitely has more of a clearer, nice midrange tone. I definitely prefer the tone over the 75's that are in my combo, but like I said; I'm sure the cabinet has alot to do with it too...being closed back, etc, etc.