Most agree that tube amps sound better. But why do they sound better?

[Guitartrue]

Originally Posted by DLebs

Both of those clips are pretty darn compressed. That's what high gain does. If you're out to prove that modelers don't compress, play clean and dynamically.

Yeah thats high gain, and it is perfectly modeled. Now lo/medium gain.
First see post #52.

Great review of the Kemper, A/B comparisons at 2:25


If you have some time watch this:



Note: The AXE FX II now have his own profiling "tone matching". You can tone match any isolated guitar clip and any real amp.



Buttery Broken tones
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/53671808/Buttery-6.0.flac

Mr. Bonamassa's twin amp rig
First part real amp clip, second AxeFx
http://soundcloud.com/cyberferret/jb-tone-matching

Here his Marshall Jubilee, first part the real amp.
http://soundcloud.com/cyberferret/jb-tone-matching-2

Some Knopfler:

http://soundcloud.com/xpenno/mfn

ORIGINAL --- AXE II --- AXEII PHASED AND DELAYED
http://soundcloud.com/andras-1-1/money40

Try to get this close with your real amp.

I think that with this post some guys are going to change his mind about what digital can do this days.

[bwires]

For me, it's one word - Punch!

[rob2001]

Kinda funny how some tube purists will cite clips as a litmus test of some sort. A clip, sampled by a mic, run thru a myriad of SS and digital gear, and played back on a digital system on 1" speakers.

I feel fortunate i'm not hung up on what circuit I get my tones from.

[Guitartrue]

I have found a great post by Cliff (AxeFx creator) that I think could be interesting on this thread.

Originally Posted by FractalAudio

It now has Tone Matching which is arguably the most important part of profiling.

Profiling consists of four parts:
1. Finding the input EQ.
2. Finding the "shape" and bias point of the nonlinear transfer function.
3. Finding the output EQ.
4. Finding the compression, or sag, characteristics.

The Axe-Fx II with V6 uses a hybrid modeling/profiling approach. The Axe-Fx modeling is much more complex in that it does not use a single waveshaper with adjustable shape and bias point. It uses multiple dynamic nonlinearities including preamp and power amp modeling. Profilers distill everything down to a single static waveshaper and then adjust the shape (probably a x+k/x-k waveshaper) and bias point of that waveshaper to try and match the measured transfer function. They then find the input and output EQ and the compression.

With V6 the Axe-Fx II uses a combination of modeling and profiling. The amps are modeled using our exclusive multiple dynamic nonlinearities that very accurately replicate actual tube triodes and our new power amp modeling which fully recreates the behavior of a tube power amp and output transformer. The models are then refined by applying test tones to the actual amp to find deviations between the real amp and the model. For example, traditional circuit based modeling cannot account for things like parasitics since these are not represented by the schematic. So we now augment our traditional circuit modeling with measurements from the actual amp and store that data in the model.

With Tone Matching you can morph a model to match other amps. This works best if the model and amp are similar.

There are numerous advantages to this approach. These advantages include full control matching. The drive, tone, etc. controls behave just like the real amp. You're not just getting a snapshot of the amp at some setting. Another advantage is full separability of the amp from the cabinet. Due to inseparability of linear responses, profiling lumps the amplifier output with the cab response. The multiple nonlinearities also capture the complexities of amps that rely on both preamp and power amp distortion. Single waveshaper approaches cannot capture the complex interactions of multiple distorting stages and the concomitant duty-cycle modulation, EQ modulation (which produces note bloom and swirl) and the vagaries of feel.

The one disadvantage is that you only get the amps that we have modeled. If you have an amp that is very unique that we haven't modeled then Tone Matching may not fully capture the essence of that amp. Profiling allows you to capture that amp at your favorite settings with your favorite cab. Another disadvantage is that modeling is very labor intensive. We have to enter all the circuit data, measure the control tapers, verify the model accuracy and then apply all the fancy test tones and capture the refinement data.

[Tommy_G]

Originally Posted by Ben F.

Purged 'em five years ago. Last one was a 6V6-based Reverend Goblin. Nice little amp, but totally redundant....

FWIW, I would still consider tube-based pedals, not because they are more tube-like but because they simply offer a different flavor. Kingsley comes to mind. Eric's amps are versatile, but they don't do everything, e.g. the 'V' voice is more like a Matchless than a vintage Vox.

I say "good riddance" mostly because I suffer no more temptation to play the NOS tube swapping game. Not everybody has that problem.

I can understand that. I've never spent more time "learning/spending" and less time "playing" than since I got into tube amps.

I still don't really know what I like.....

[KRosser]

Over the years I've been astonished to learn how many of my favorite recorded guitar sounds were done straight into the mixing board, proving to me that nothing sounds better in method until it sounds better in realization.

[crosse79]

They are more expensive - they MUST sound better.

[Will-]

Originally Posted by Pietro

Alexander Dumble knows...

Crystal lettuce...

"the best sounding amplifier ive ever heard" well isn't that funny because you happen to be the shitest guitar player I've ever heard

[Brian Johnston]

that's one thing I like about the Pritchards... it has an outlet for direct to mixer/board for recording or playing through monitor speakers, etc. I sometimes use the built-in speaker for the fun of it, but typically not.

[EADGBE]

Originally Posted by KRosser

Over the years I've been astonished to learn how many of my favorite recorded guitar sounds were done straight into the mixing board, proving to me that nothing sounds better in method until it sounds better in realization.

Can you tell me what some of these are as I'm interested in this too.

[axuality.com]

Originally Posted by EADGBE

What is it about tube or valve amps that most of us guitarists like over transistor/solid state ones? Why do they sound better?

Their tone has more color/thickness, because you hear more than just the note you meant to play. There are many overtones that come into play, not just the note you played.

In a real way, solid state amps sound BETTER- that is if you're looking for the ultra-clean sound of an amp that produces a pure note. Some days, I prefer my solid state amp (until I turn on one of my tube amps).

Solid state amps are also more forgiving. Meaning that they seem to blend the notes together better. Tube amps tend to make the notes stick out more. Which is good and not so good, depending on what you want.

[tiktok]

Originally Posted by EADGBE

Can you tell me what some of these are as I'm interested in this too.

Probably the two most famous into-the-board tracks are Zep's "Black Dog" and Pink Floyd's "Another Brick In The Wall pt. 2" solo. Although to be fair, I believe both were feeding very aggressive tube compressor/limiter(s).

[axuality.com]

Originally Posted by Tommy_G

I can understand that. I've never spent more time "learning/spending" and less time "playing" than since I got into tube amps.

I still don't really know what I like.....

No kidding. Getting on this forum and HCAF is one of the most anti-productive things I've ever done for my playing.

It got me a couple good amps and maybe a good guitar or two, but I'm STILL thinking more about how my amps and guitars SOUND (instead of thinking about my playing), than I've ever done in my life. And how you SOUND is NOT in my opinion, a very important element.

[sabbath90]

Originally Posted by tiktok

Probably the two most famous into-the-board tracks are Zep's "Black Dog" and Pink Floyd's "Another Brick In The Wall pt. 2" solo. Although to be fair, I believe both were feeding very aggressive tube compressor/limiter(s).

Actually, Black Dog was all solid state. The preamps on the Helios console and the 1176 compressor are completely tube-less.

[axuality.com]

I ran the amp sims of a Deluxe Reverb and a Plexi from my Line 6 Pod, into cheap Fender Frontman 212R amps, and the tone gave me just as much pleasure as the tone on my Marshall DSL2000 (or Blackstar Stage60) does now.