Back in the Day on Playing and Technique

[dewey decibel]

I'll tell you what I think about the tune, I don't think I ever responded to the other thread.

Looking at just the chords I could go either way. I hear the melody as in D, and I think most people will hear the verse and lyric as in D, D being the "home" chord (especially the chorus, come on!!). As for the solo section (which I take it is what the argument was about as everyone wants to know what scale to solo with) since the melody dictates the key and the soloist is essentially making up the melody on the spot, they have the freedom to decide what the key is. If they gravitate towards resolving to G and their lines are strong, more power to 'em!

[JonR]

Originally Posted by KRosser

Yes, we hear it differently.

FWIW, I was sorta playing the obstinate card for laughs because I thought it might be fun to kick this particular hornet's nest and see what came out.

Be well, and take care

You too. I don't feel too stung...

[JonR]

Originally Posted by vhollund

Maybe because the core of people helping here got wiser ?
All that bickering, false revelations and self acclaimed professor hats, was more an excuse for one persons blabbering than for sharing usable knowledge.

I'm glad there's less BS here now
And there is plenty of mad professors here to still keep things interesting

Hello? Somebody call?

[JonR]

Originally Posted by dewey decibel

I'll tell you what I think about the tune, I don't think I ever responded to the other thread.

Looking at just the chords I could go either way. I hear the melody as in D, and I think most people will hear the verse and lyric as in D, D being the "home" chord (especially the chorus, come on!!)

Well, the melody certainly hammers home that D a lot more strongly in the chorus. IMO the chords are still saying G, but they are kind of getting swamped at that point...

Originally Posted by dewey decibel

. As for the solo section (which I take it is what the argument was about as everyone wants to know what scale to solo with) since the melody dictates the key and the soloist is essentially making up the melody on the spot, they have the freedom to decide what the key is. If they gravitate towards resolving to G and their lines are strong, more power to 'em!

Yes, the solos are where it gets interesting. The scale (the pitch collection) is really the same whichever way one thinks. G major or D mixolydian? Just choose your resolving note.
Thinking D mixolydian is going to gravitate to D blues, which is cool.
Thinking G major results easily in major pents of each chord, with bluesy b3 passing notes. That gives a less "rock-blues" sound, and a more "yee-hah" honky tonk country rock sound.
I like both approaches. Instinctively - personally - I would go for the latter, at least to to begin with. It's more fun. But wailing away in D blues also has its appeal.

The strange thing is, it sounds to me like the pianist (Al Kooper?) was thinking G, because of those major pent phrases. But he has stated he believes the song is in D, while it was Ed King who treated it as G.
http://www.al.com/sweet-home-alabama/index.ssf/2010/10/producer_al_kooper_on_sweet_ho.html
However, the major pent stuff (of each chord) works whatever you feel the keynote is. I might play very similar phrases to AK and still be thinking key of G. Makes no real difference.
It's blues thinking (choosing a scale which doesn't necessarily refer to chord tones) where the differences are going to appear. G blues is a very different thing from D blues.

It's instructive - thinking "key of G" - to try going for G minor pent or G blues... which sounds quite wrong for this tune. IOW, it sounds good (IMO), but does put a different complexion on it. (This can be a hammer for the "D camp" to beat me over the head with...)

To open the debate a little, the obvious comparison song is "Werewolves of London", which is the same chord progression, but has a melody more focussed in G. (I don't suppose anyone is going to argue that WOL is in D mixolydian...?)
IMO, these two songs are a great lesson in the effects of melody and chords combined: how they can point one way, and then another, depending partly on chord root movement, but also on melodic emphasis.

Compare and contrast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRHIeblmIws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHsDa...eature=related
- notice they finish on G (chord and vocal), tee hee... not that that has to mean anything I guess...

(As a non-Skynyrd fan, if someone would like to tell me which one Ed King is - in both the video and studio versions - I'd like to check his solo out. I can't believe I'm still flogging this one... )

[huw]

Originally Posted by JonR

...(As a non-Skynyrd fan, if someone would like to tell me which one Ed King is...

King had left the band by the time that video was shot Jon. He's in this one though, if you can bear to listen to yet abother version of the song...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDz2rVgv0uM

[rizla]

To me the key that is used to solo over the original recording is such a signature sound that the sound of playing it in D scale is wrong.
It might be right theoretically but it sounds wrong. Kind of flat and a bit dark.
I will admit its a lot easier to play over using the D, just wail away with out thinking too much.
Im surprised that others cant hear how the G works and would choose to solo in D over a song that has such a signature sound.

[medrawt]

Gentlemen:

It's in D, and then on the very last go round it seamlessly modulates to G.

Or, more seriously, I hear it in D, both because of the melody and the rhythm - G never gets to sound, rhythmically, like "home base" to me, and has the tension pulling it back to D. But then, and it drives me nuts, in the version just posted and I think every other one I've heard, they actually do end the song on G, by way of not playing the characteristic rhythms of the riff, so the feel does kind of change. I assume they weren't thinking of it this way, of course. But it is instructive as a reminder that you can take a chord (the G here) and make it sound like the tonic or sound like a tension that needs resolving mostly through the rhythm. At least to my ears.

[zakmichael]

"Green jacket, gold jacket, who gives a shit!" As long as it goes da-da da-na, na-na na-naw, da da, na na na na na naw!

[rizla]

Originally Posted by zakmichael

"Green jacket, gold jacket, who gives a shit!" As long as it goes da-da da-na, na-na na-naw, da da, na na na na na naw!

you got some of the da's and na's in the wrong place but Im not going to split hairs about it. Probably interchangeable anyway.

[zakmichael]

The little guy at the end should tell you the da's and na's are probably off! Point is, if I can ask people what song is this and hymn it out they'd all know what song it is. If you can play the song well and all the way through, wtf does it matter what key it's played in?! 95% of people don't study guitar. They just know if the song sounds how they remember it.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by huw

King had left the band by the time that video was shot Jon. He's in this one though, if you can bear to listen to yet abother version of the song...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDz2rVgv0uM

Thanks huw.
As time - and indeed life - is short, care to give me the timing for the start of his solo?

(I feel a bit like a high court judge now... "So, um, tell me, which one is Leonard...?")

[JonR]

Originally Posted by rizla

To me the key that is used to solo over the original recording is such a signature sound that the sound of playing it in D scale is wrong.
It might be right theoretically but it sounds wrong. Kind of flat and a bit dark.

It's "theoretically right" both ways.
I mean, not at the same time, but you choose according to what your ears tell you the keynote is. People's ears differ, this is the interesting thing.

"Kind of flat and a bit dark" is a personal value judgment which presumably helps to persuade you that D is wrong (because that's not the vibe the lyrics are intending to put across). Not everyone will hear it that way.

Originally Posted by rizla

I will admit its a lot easier to play over using the D, just wail away with out thinking too much.
Im surprised that others cant hear how the G works and would choose to solo in D over a song that has such a signature sound.

Despite being a subscriber to the G view myself, I can say it sounds fine (IMO and in Al Kooper's view) to "wail away in D".
After all, that's exactly what Ronnie van Zandt did the whole way through...

[JonR]

Originally Posted by medrawt

Gentlemen:

It's in D, and then on the very last go round it seamlessly modulates to G.

Or, more seriously, I hear it in D, both because of the melody and the rhythm - G never gets to sound, rhythmically, like "home base" to me, and has the tension pulling it back to D. But then, and it drives me nuts, in the version just posted and I think every other one I've heard, they actually do end the song on G, by way of not playing the characteristic rhythms of the riff, so the feel does kind of change. I assume they weren't thinking of it this way, of course. But it is instructive as a reminder that you can take a chord (the G here) and make it sound like the tonic or sound like a tension that needs resolving mostly through the rhythm. At least to my ears.

Thank you for the last sentence, which goes a fair way to make up for the "Gentlemen" you started with... .
(You sound like me when - it seems like a lifetime ago - I was pontificating from on high about G being the obvious key...)

But I don't suppose they went through any theoretical contortions to support the notion of "modulating to G" as a coda...

"hey, here's a cool idea, guys... we modulate to the subdominant via the bIII, turning it into a pivot bVII, ie the IV of the IV, y'know a double plagal cadence which will lead us naturally to G. Those theoretical fans of ours won't be expecting that..."
"Gotcha, let's do it..."

In the spirit of Einstein - "everything should be made as simple as possible but no simpler" - a more likely explanation is they went with G because they thought (rightly or wrongly) it sounded right to them, or most of them. Because (possibly) that was the keynote they were hearing, from the chord sequence at least.
We don't have to agree with them, of course, esp as they didn't agree among themselves.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by zakmichael

"Green jacket, gold jacket, who gives a shit!" As long as it goes da-da da-na, na-na na-naw, da da, na na na na na naw!

Yeah, but is da major or naw mixolydian?

[gtrjake]

OK, how about this: what key is "All Summer Long" by Kid Rock in?