How much pa is too much?

[SeeMoore]

Originally Posted by CRBMoA

I can and do agree with the physics about 'longer waves taking longer to set up' being inaccurate.


My point was, standing 3' from the rig described by the OP will NOT give a bassist a true idea of how loud he is compared to the rest of the band.

That's about how far he is away from the cabs, most times not even that cause there ain't room.

[SeeMoore]

IMHO some of the best bass tones I've heard are from very early Elton John records, depth with definition.

I know that would be hard to reproduce live but gosh darnit', I know it can be better than an indie script boomy mess!

[GCDEF]

Originally Posted by SeeMoore

IMHO some of the best bass tones I've heard are from very early Elton John records, depth with definition.

I know that would be hard to reproduce live but gosh darnit', I know it can be better than an indie script boomy mess!

I don't know how they were recorded, but they sound like a Ricenbacker straight to the board to me.

[Tweeker]

Originally Posted by SeeMoore

IMHO some of the best bass tones I've heard are from very early Elton John records, depth with definition.

I know that would be hard to reproduce live but gosh darnit', I know it can be better than an indie script boomy mess!

Recorded tones are a different world from live. But it's a fine idea to use those Elton records as a template.
The "problem" you present in the original post is not solved by focusing on equipment, the room, club owners or anything other than the band personnel. It's a PEOPLE THING you're dealing with, or as it appears - not dealing with.

Here's a question for you. Is the band able to balance itself in a regular rehearsal space? If you can do that, then you can do the same thing in the small rooms you describe.

[SeeMoore]

Originally Posted by Tweeker

Recorded tones are a different world from live. But it's a fine idea to use those Elton records as a template.
The "problem" you present in the original post is not solved by focusing on equipment, the room, club owners or anything other than the band personnel. It's a PEOPLE THING you're dealing with, or as it appears - not dealing with.

Here's a question for you. Is the band able to balance itself in a regular rehearsal space? If you can do that, then you can do the same thing in the small rooms you describe.

Not really, it becomes a volume war by the time it's over.
To give an idea, there have been times when the singers voice has hurt my ears when she does Janus Joplin songs, particularly the scream in "piece of my Heart", I mean painful!
It starts out ok but then one will turn up, bass player, and the race is on!

If I were younger and felt like I had time to play the field to find a band I liked, I wouldn't worry about, but I don't, and there's been a lot of money invested in this thing to walk away from it.

[Tweeker]

Originally Posted by SeeMoore

...a volume war...the singers voice has hurt my ears...I mean painful...It starts out ok but then one will turn up, bass player, and the race is on...

If a band can't self regulate and agree in rehearsal, then it's only going to be worse at a gig. You've got to fix things at the source. That means the whole band cooperates. If not, then no fix.

Originally Posted by SeeMoore

...there's been a lot of money invested in this thing to walk away from it.

That's what divorce lawyers are for.

Originally Posted by SeeMoore

...If I didn't love playing so much I'd just give it up, just play in the back room and church.

Not to just be flip, but it sounds like you're finding something that's worth it for you to stay with this band. It that's true, then keep doing what you're doing, keep getting what your getting and take from it what you can --
accepting that this is the way it is! If you want things to be different, you've got to make the change yourself.

[barhrecords]

Stage volume wars are an unfortunate but common situation with weekend warrior bands.

Other than looking for new mates, try to get all the monitors, amp speakers, everything that makes sound on stage, as close to the ears of the musicians as possible.

Or consider in-ears and crank their mix so they can hear the out of balance sound.

Richard

[SeeMoore]

Originally Posted by Tweeker

If a band can't self regulate and agree in rehearsal, then it's only going to be worse at a gig. You've got to fix things at the source. That means the whole band cooperates. If not, then no fix.

That's correct, I consider rehearsal as building a product to take to market, build it right and you'll keep your customers.

That's what divorce lawyers are for.

It could get ugly

Not to just be flip, but it sounds like you're finding something that's worth it for you to stay with this band. It that's true, then keep doing what you're doing, keep getting what your getting and take from it what you can --
accepting that this is the way it is! If you want things to be different, you've got to make the change yourself.

Well yea, I get along great with the drummer and other guitarist, both good guys, and I think they would go with me if it came down to it.
The chick singer is really good, but she's really young, 22, and kinda " out there" sometimes What's odd is I've known the bass player the longest and he and I produce the most tension.

We have a gig this Saturday, I'm going to try a few things you guys have suggested and hope for the best.
I really should record it, let y'all hear it and make sure it ain't just me making a big deal over nothing.

[soulohio]

why don'y you guys stop playing whatever it is that is making all the fuss and play DOOM? I mean, you can have the bass player turn up all he wants and the rest of youse guys can join in too...

[Tweeker]

Originally Posted by SeeMoore

..I really should record it, let y'all hear it and make sure it ain't just me making a big deal over nothing.

If you've been told more than once that you're too loud by club owners, then you're not making a big deal over nothing. You're limiting your gig potential.
Playing a live recording for the band is something that can be valuable, but only if people are willing to really listen. From what you say, up to now you describe a typical scenario where band members do what makes them happy with little or no regard for the whole.

[loudboy]

Originally Posted by SeeMoore

To give an idea, there have been times when the singers voice has hurt my ears when she does Janus Joplin songs, particularly the scream in "piece of my Heart", I mean painful!

You need a compressor patched into her channel. She sounds young an inexperienced - a compressor will smooth out her dynamics and keep her vocal above the rest of the band.

You also need to practice playing as a unit, so you have a balanced sound onstage.

If you learn to do this, you will never have a bad live mix.

You can still be too loud for certain clubs, if your drummer is a really heavy hitter, in which case you'll have to find different place to play.

But to put up with one guy, especially the bass player, killing the mix and losing you gigs is beyond ludicrous, IMHO.

And, to your original request, you definitely need a new PA.

[phoenix 7]

You're bass player is nuts. Powered speakers on poles, a couple powered monitors, and a small mixer are perfect for a space that size.

[SeeMoore]

Originally Posted by phoenix 7

You're bass player is nuts. Powered speakers on poles, a couple powered monitors, and a small mixer are perfect for a space that size.

That's what I think, on both counts

[Tmac1957]

Once had a bass player who did about the same thing. He had a huge stack, we didn't even run him through the PA, and he was STILL overpowering. After giving him repeated grief about it, he must have turned his amp to ONE starting the third set....acting like a 12 year old and trying to make a point....anyway he calmed down and got it together later, but it was a trying situation.

[lspaulsp]

If you can't fit on the stage, you probably have too much PA and or BASS amp.