I'm so excited! Just brought home a PreSonus 16.4.2.

[SarasotaSlim]

Originally Posted by walterw

wow!

back here in "move the jukebox to plug in the PA" land (and back on topic), the presonus has pretty evidently become the de facto "digital mixwizard" for bar bands.

as such, it's worth sending that busted one off to get fixed.

Agreed - and then find someone with an iPad so you can use the app. The app helps me visualize and comprehend things like EQ much better than looking at the little LEDs on the board. I'd like to have that smaller 16.0.2 for most of my little gigs.

[SarasotaSlim]

Originally Posted by jmoose

Likely at least several grand depending... I don't do front office work on that stuff but the question doesn't compute.

If you've got a big show that requires a line array to cover a few thousand people... nobody uses one for 500-1000 people, you absolutely have to involve and coordinate stage and lighting. These things are built on the ground and hoisted... its not like 'ya can roll up in a van 3 hours before the hit and put stuff in the air.

With the Multirack I'm wondering if anyone has actual first hand experience running it for inserts on analog desk & what latency is like, as well as what it does on DSP overloads... thanks.

Yes I'm familiar with the logistics of getting them up and that part was theoretically being supplied by the promoter.

As for the latency and DSP overloads - can you repeat the questions separately and a little slower this time - I'm not the sharpest pencil in the drawer.

[jmoose]

Originally Posted by rokpunk

i don't charge nearly as much for what we do, though, partially because we don't fly the rig, and partially because i don't go after the large events like the $20K/night companies do. obviously corporate gigs pay the real money, not festivals and concerts.

There's one company up here that does almost strictly concerts & festivals... not much corporate work & usually the main question on hanging a rig vs. stacking boils down to the insurance policy.

[robare99]

I've never used the multirack yet.

$25k is some money for us small guys. Real estate is at an even higher premium at times...

I literally wouldn't have room for an M7 at the venues I do. The GLD does look interesting!

[jmoose]

Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim

As for the latency and DSP overloads - can you repeat the questions separately and a little slower this time - I'm not the sharpest pencil in the drawer.

Really? I don't mean to be a jerk but that's REALLY BASIC stuff with digital audio.

If you don't understand it I'm not about to explain it, there's far too many tutorials out there already and I don't have the time unless you wanna schedule an appointment and pay the consulting rate.

It'd probably do a world of good to educate yourself on that... latency... time delay and how it affects digital audio and phase relationships in analog audio is fairly important stuff to have at least a working knowledge about.

[rokpunk]

Originally Posted by jmoose

Likely at least several grand depending... I don't do front office work on that stuff but the question doesn't compute.

If you've got a big show that requires a line array to cover a few thousand people... nobody uses one for 500-1000 people, you absolutely have to involve and coordinate stage and lighting. These things are built on the ground and hoisted... its not like 'ya can roll up in a van 3 hours before the hit and put stuff in the air.

if flying a line array was just a 3 hour ordeal in a van, i'd consider buying one just to save time!

[SarasotaSlim]

Originally Posted by jmoose

Really? I don't mean to be a jerk but that's REALLY BASIC stuff with digital audio.

If you don't understand it I'm not about to explain it, there's far too many tutorials out there already and I don't have the time unless you wanna schedule an appointment and pay the consulting rate.

It'd probably do a world of good to educate yourself on that... latency... time delay and how it affects digital audio and phase relationships in analog audio is fairly important stuff to have at least a working knowledge about.

OK - you forced me to go back and re-read your post a little more carefully this time. It looks like the "Multirack" thingy is some kind of new digital device that does a lot of cool things that people want done. I'm guessing you wanna use multiple effects-processors-etc. and wanna know if it has a noticeable time lag?? Can't answer that 'cause this is a new beast to me - never heard of it before. It probably works fine - are they expensive? Got a link to them or is that being too lazy?

[robare99]

Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim

Agreed - and then find someone with an iPad so you can use the app. The app helps me visualize and comprehend things like EQ much better than looking at the little LEDs on the board. I'd like to have that smaller 16.0.2 for most of my little gigs.

Nice.

I have a 24.4.2 for big gigs, (full bands, etc) and a 16.0.2 for smaller gigs, (open mics, comedians, etc) it's real handy, especially a couple venues with stairs. I'm now looking into getting an Audiobox 1818 VSL for the tiny gigs. A comedian is one mic, others are a laptop and a mic. I want to mount the 1818VSL in the front of my 3 space rack case containing my Mac Mini & router. Über portable then for those tiny gigs. All in one. 8 XLR inputs your outputs, recording and wireless mixing all in one box.

That's another thing I like. I can use them all with the same computer/router setup.

[SarasotaSlim]

Originally Posted by robare99

Nice.

I have a 24.4.2 for big gigs, (full bands, etc) and a 16.0.2 for smaller gigs, (open mics, comedians, etc) it's real handy, especially a couple venues with stairs. I'm now looking into getting an Audiobox 1818 VSL for the tiny gigs. A comedian is one mic, others are a laptop and a mic. I want to mount the 1818VSL in the front of my 3 space rack case containing my Mac Mini & router. Über portable then for those tiny gigs. All in one. 8 XLR inputs your outputs, recording and wireless mixing all in one box.

That's another thing I like. I can use them all with the same computer/router setup.

I've been using the "Create Network" function on my Macbook Pro and so far so good - no need for a router yet. I had the 16 now have the 24 but want the small 16. For the small time ankle biter they are the shizzle and using the iPad is almost like having a puppy

[robare99]

True. You can do an adhoc network. I just went for an N-Band router instead.

[jmoose]

Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim

OK - you forced me to go back and re-read your post a little more carefully this time. It looks like the "Multirack" thingy is some kind of new digital device that does a lot of cool things that people want done. I'm guessing you wanna use multiple effects-processors-etc. and wanna know if it has a noticeable time lag?? Can't answer that 'cause this is a new beast to me - never heard of it before. It probably works fine - are they expensive? Got a link to them or is that being too lazy?

http://www.waveslive.com/html/multirack.aspx

Latency affects ALL digital signals. Not just processing but yes, even consoles.

My introduction weeks back wasn't all that complete, and the guy had only been running it for a few weeks with a new hot-shot laptop, patched across the subgroups of the analog desk... and since we were probably 125-150 feet from the stage, outdoors, any processing delay was inaudible.

I do probably a few dozen gigs a year in theaters & clubs, usually a short run where it'd be nice to ditch a rack but still have "outboard" for channel inserts and something nicer then the ubiquitous Presonus ACP88 and Samson junk. See a lotta baby soundcrafts, allen & heath GL series etc and if there's a digital desk its usually an M7CL or Venue. But if its a 30ms round trip, or even 20ms then it'd be unusable for channel inserts... and therefore kinda useless.

Bottom line is, I guess... more on topic is that at least IMO if you wanna run a digital console then you need to have an education on how this stuff works, what its going to effect and how to deal with it.

FWIW - I looked at the Audiobox 18vsl about a year ago for my B-rig, took one for a demo and found it to be more or less unusable. The preamps were clipping with the gain all the way down and regular old dynamic mics, like a Beta 52 & SM57 on kick and snare. Tech support told me that I should either use different mics or variable pads... try different miking techniques. The build quality was also less then inspiring.

[robare99]

That's good to know about the VSL18. I'll see of I can rent one...

[SarasotaSlim]

Originally Posted by jmoose

http://www.waveslive.com/html/multirack.aspx

Latency affects ALL digital signals. Not just processing but yes, even consoles.

My introduction weeks back wasn't all that complete, and the guy had only been running it for a few weeks with a new hot-shot laptop, patched across the subgroups of the analog desk... and since we were probably 125-150 feet from the stage, outdoors, any processing delay was inaudible.

I do probably a few dozen gigs a year in theaters & clubs, usually a short run where it'd be nice to ditch a rack but still have "outboard" for channel inserts and something nicer then the ubiquitous Presonus ACP88 and Samson junk. See a lotta baby soundcrafts, allen & heath GL series etc and if there's a digital desk its usually an M7CL or Venue. But if its a 30ms round trip, or even 20ms then it'd be unusable for channel inserts... and therefore kinda useless.

Bottom line is, I guess... more on topic is that at least IMO if you wanna run a digital console then you need to have an education on how this stuff works, what its going to effect and how to deal with it.

FWIW - I looked at the Audiobox 18vsl about a year ago for my B-rig, took one for a demo and found it to be more or less unusable. The preamps were clipping with the gain all the way down and regular old dynamic mics, like a Beta 52 & SM57 on kick and snare. Tech support told me that I should either use different mics or variable pads... try different miking techniques. The build quality was also less then inspiring.

Looks nice - looks expensive - probably won't be dealing with this stuff any time soon I hope. I have enough trouble just dealing with the simple Presonus/macbook/ipad stuff I already have. So far I haven't crossed over into doing work on other peoples gear - just my own. I suspect that latency is pretty minimal - don't they list specs for stuff like that somewhere?

[Snap]

Originally Posted by rokpunk

i've got a pair of M7CL/48's and a pair of LS9's, plus a pair of little midas venice 32's, and a couple 16 channel MixWizards....i'm done buying consoles for a couple years! there are some great things that digital consoles can do that analog can't, such as being able to set up a mix from your hotel room or on a plane and just loading it onto the board once you get to the show....and then use the same program for the next show, saving hours of soundcheck time. you can't do that with an analog board! if i found some other console that blew the M7/LS9 away, i'd consider upgrading sometime, but at this point, i feel the yamahas are the best bang for the buck when it comes to the mid and entry level digital boards. i've always been a yamaha fan.....since the '80's/early '90's when i bought my first PM3K. yamaha has been the industry standard in mixing consoles for 25+ years, and for good reason. like i said before, if i walk into a show and there is a PM4K, or even a PM3K, i'm just fine using it. just as there are plenty of "retail/weekend warrior/everyday user/small HOW market" users who "don't have a 5-figure budget for just the console", there are plenty out there that DO have the budget and clientele to justify spending 5 figures for a mixing console. just like it was said above, my consoles have just about paid for themselves in rentals alone over the last few years. i wouldn't have invested in them if i didn't feel that they would pay for themselves. same with the meyer rig. i could have bought 10x as many QSC or JBL boxes as i have meyer boxes, but the meyers are what the promoters and my clients want, and will pay a premium price for. plus, they make my job simple since it's nearly impossible to make them sound bad! sure, i have other speaker systems that we rent out for those without such deep pockets, but once we do a show for a client with a meyer rig, suddenly they can ONLY live with meyers. i didn't always have meyer speakers...for many years i ran a JBL trap box rig, but once i got turned onto the meyers, just like my clients, nothing else will do now! it's easy to get spoiled once you are used to a certain sound. they aren't a top rated/requested company for no reason. but, like i said before, if i'm doing a walk in gig and it's a JBL, or some other companies rig, i can do my job on them and make it sound just fine. you said it well....it's not the arrow...

Nice rig, if I ever gig in your area now I know who to call.