A real Trainwreck/Ken Fischer thread

[FFTT]

How many people have attempted to re-produce a Stradivarius?

Ken produced a total work of art.

This was his mastery.

You can use the same paint, the same brush, the same canvas but the end
result is defined by the artist.

[trisonic]

Originally Posted by hansoloist

Negativity, rehashed arguments, infantile back 'n' fourth, etc...yup, a "real Trainwreck/Ken Fischer thread" indeed.

Always the same two camps; always the same tired stuff.

If I were in Ken's place and it was my good name at the center of this much bullshit, I'd be corkscrewing my way to China.

peace
-jeff

jeff, I did get to p6 before giving up!

Anyway it's not "Rocket Science" it's "Racket Science" (to which I have to credit John Phillips).

I can't think of anything else to add......

Best, Pete.

[57gold]

...and building, I am sure that he would be sourcing the best new parts that deliver the tone that he was after. Current hobbyists and boutique manufacturers are filling a gap left by Ken's inability to manufacture in quantity, fill orders recieved...just like when Marshall went multi channel, printed circuit board and Fender went CyberTwin and creative people stepped in to re-create classic, in demand circuits....but, they are forced to use what's available to them, just like Ken would/did with Komet design.

This fixation on what's a TW is or is not is goofy. Somone ownes a named Express...congratulations, you got a real treasure...wish it was me...on KF's list for years for an Express, Liverpool or Rocket, whatever he would sell me. You got a real one....I don't.

Never will a KF tweaked original be made, those who were not graced to have an order filled or even know what a TW was will never benefit from the "secret sauce", the tweak of tweaks, the cap or resistor that opens a new world of tone...we get it. The end.

Now on to reality.

[sfarnell]

Originally Posted by Roccaforte Amps

Mook, sorry to disagree here but on your comment regarding parts,
unless you're 100% certain that these parts do not exist,
it is possible for anyone who had them to build a clone.
Meaning identical. I actually have some of these parts
myself. Not by choice, I've been buying tons of surplus
for many years. As far as I know, every amp builder
in the world does the same thing collecting old stuff.
My part collection would make anyone happy who
works with guitar amplifiers.
DR

And that is why your amps rock. The biggest mistake I made in a trade was getting rid of my roccaforte 40. I'll have another one day. Soon I hope.

[Mook]

Originally Posted by Roccaforte Amps

Mook, sorry to disagree here but on your comment regarding parts,
unless you're 100% certain that these parts do not exist,
it is possible for anyone who had them to build a clone.
Meaning identical. I actually have some of these parts
myself. Not by choice, I've been buying tons of surplus
for many years. As far as I know, every amp builder
in the world does the same thing collecting old stuff.
My part collection would make anyone happy who
works with guitar amplifiers.
DR

I've not seen the parts in catalogs. But, I don't doubt you've aquired some NOS parts over the years......heck, I even have. I have some of the original e-caps used in the Wrecks. Doesn't mean I can build a clone, tho.

Mookie

[Carol-AnnAmps]

Originally Posted by allynmey

Some of our "experts" might want to explain "tweaking" to 'wrecks done by Ken Fischer?

Even one? Heres a chance for our TW owners or KF thread posters that use that word in their posts to explain themselves. Why do you use that phase? Have you looked in your 'wrecks? Have you compared it to others? Or are you sure he had to or else there is no magic.

Time to step up to the plate....describe even one "tweak".

Brew???? Mook???? anyone???

Since Kens untimely passing, I have been trusted by several Wreck owners to service their amps. A couple are on this board.
Every single one I have played has sounded great, but every one was a little different. The basic schem. pretty much remained the same, but a few differences could easily be seen. He obviously built and tweaked each one differently, with an obvious tone target in mind.
The circuit by design is borderline unstable (hence the large number of overly-bright and noisy clones I have heard). In order to bring this circuit inside the point of stability, there are a number of subtle changes and differences that can be seen.
Lead dress and preamp tube selection are the most common two 'tweaks' and yes they are absolutely tweaks. No design I have worked on is more sensitive to lead dress....the Dumble designs are a pretty close second.
Inaudible oscillations have to be found and removed or else the amp will sound constipated or shrill and won't bloom. This is a time-consuming labourious process and sometimes even 2mm of movement on a cable can be the difference between an average and a great amp.
I have seen cases of amps with grid resistors on the second stage, no sheilded cable uses, sheiled cable on the first stage and sheilded cable on both first and second stage. All these are 'tweaks' in order to acheive some tonal or noise reduction goal.
As for tubes, I've seen both West German Siemens and Mullard EL34's. Valvo, Bugle Boy and Mullard preamp tubes seem like the most common. I have only seen one Telefunken and that was in the PI. I can't imagine with this design Ken would use one of those anywhere else but the PI.
So for all those guys who have built a clone of an Express, you should be able to put the bright switch on the max setting, crank the treble and prescence up pretty high, run the volume around 7 and not have a noisy ice-pick sounding amp. If you do, something is wrong and you are not experiencing what a real Express sounds or feels like.
Also with the volume on 0, there should be little to no hiss if the amp is tuned corrrectly, despite what you may have heard on some message boards.

Please don't read this as me being a smart ass, it's just my own experiences based on actually working on a few.

Alan.

[Smokin Tone]

Originally Posted by Mook

.......but all the amp makers are missing the secrets.....

I'm sorry, but only Ken can build a Trainwreck.......


Mook

I respectfully disagree.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/sho...d.php?t=286875

Please do not take any of this discussion over to that thread though.

[chris_d]

Originally Posted by Carol-AnnAmps

Please don't read this as me being a smart ass, it's just my own experiences based on actually working on a few.

Actually your post is fine, and without being overly helpful or "revealing" it makes more sense and is much less condescendingly vague than many other folks who post with their experiences with the originals.

I thank you for that.

I would still prefer even more open dialog on the special bits of these amps, and less "secret club" behavior, as exhibited by both sides of the conversation. I interpret Ken's attitude as being one eager to make sure that as many actual working musicians as possible could have access to his amp's wonderful sounds. Also, as so many people who claim to have corresponded with Mr. Fisher also tend to imply the possession of inside knowledge, it seems to me that the man was not nearly as tight-lipped and concerned with his knowledge getting out there as so many of his followers are.

Oh well.

-chris

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

Originally Posted by trisonic

Anyway it's not "Rocket Science" it's "Racket Science" (to which I have to credit John Phillips).

and in the grand scam of things it's all racket science.

[Carol-AnnAmps]

Originally Posted by chris_d

Actually your post is fine, and without being overly helpful or "revealing" it makes more sense and is much less condescendingly vague than many other folks who post with their experiences with the originals.

I thank you for that.

I would still prefer even more open dialog on the special bits of these amps, and less "secret club" behavior, as exhibited by both sides of the conversation. I interpret Ken's attitude as being one eager to make sure that as many actual working musicians as possible could have access to his amp's wonderful sounds. Also, as so many people who claim to have corresponded with Mr. Fisher also tend to imply the possession of inside knowledge, it seems to me that the man was not nearly as tight-lipped and concerned with his knowledge getting out there as so many of his followers are.

Oh well.

-chris

There's no secret to the circuit as I think Doug pointed out. What do you want to know about it?
The 'skill' is in the ability to understand from an electronic and tonal perspective the cause and effect of anything you do. Many people can build amps, however, few have both the technical knowledge and the tonal understanding. You have no doubt already witnessed the results when one of these are missing.

[Roccaforte Amps]

I've not seen the parts in catalogs. But, I don't doubt you've aquired some NOS parts over the years......heck, I even have. I have some of the original e-caps used in the Wrecks. Doesn't mean I can build a clone, tho.

Mookie




I'm not talking parts catalogs?
You're right it doesn't mean you can build one,
but there are probably thousands who can, if not millions.
Here, let me explain myself better so you and everyone else
understands exactly what I'm saying.
My company Roccaforte Amps started as a result of me
building all of my products.
Once the orders exceeded what I could build in a month
I had to step up production by going to an assembly shop,
hiring employees, training them, building working prototypes,
and drawings for them to build by.
I supply everything that I've been using since the start
of my company years ago.
My products produce the exact performance and "tone"
even though I'm not building them myself.
My work is being cloned.
So,
you now see how it's possible to reproduce someone elses
work buy only having the exact parts, and layout.
Anything manufactured in the world can be cloned
if you have the parts. The rest is just labor.
Sad but true.

[chris_d]

Originally Posted by Carol-AnnAmps

There's no secret to the circuit as I think Doug pointed out. What do you want to know about it?
The 'skill' is in the ability to understand from an electronic and tonal perspective the cause and effect of anything you do. Many people can build amps, however, few have both the technical knowledge and the tonal understanding. You have no doubt already witnessed the results when one of these are missing.

I will have to try to build one i guess, and see what i run into.

But i wonder, if all who really "understand" whatever it is that can be understood of these amps subscribe the school of thought that places things like wire color on a list of important component items?

And what qualities does one look for in choosing the "right" components for them? What about those pots in the original? What makes them special?

The Ceriatone Express that was recorded a ways back shares(at least in the clips) quite a bit of the wreck sound. Is it unreasonable to suspect that that last bit is possible with careful re-arrangement of the existing elements in that amp, or is it more likely to you that the changes to the layout and board and components in that amp are such that a Ceriatone Express is always going to fall short?

Like i said, it seems like it might be the kind of thing where i am just going to have to try to build one, and see where i run into problems. That may be the easiest way for me to understand it, or in some cases, perhaps to believe it.

-chris

[Carol-AnnAmps]

Personally I don't subscribe to the difference in tone due to the difference of color pigment in the wire. I think there are too many other parameters that can affect the tone when trying to prove this point. Let's say you take a red wire that goes from point a to point B and change it for a blue wire that goes from point A to point B. The small differences in routing, even if you try to route the wire the same, have a large enough effect on tone that it is virtually impossible to truly know if the color has any effect. I have never seen any analytical nor theorectical evidence to back this up. Who know....I just don't think so personally.

As for the pots, the most common are 80's Clarostart RV4 military spec. pots. I have also seen Allen-Bradley RV4 pots used in an original to.
I've used NOS 80's Clarostats and modern PEC RV4 spec'ed pots and there are no tonal differences.

Doug, while I totally subscribe to your statements for certain circuit designs In a modern world this is really the only way to produce a reasonable number of boutique amps and still keep total control of quality.

However, if you took the circuit in this thread in question, yes it could be built by anyone with the practical skills, however, the final lead dress and tube selection must be done by someone who understands exactly what they are doing and looking for. Making it an exact replica of a model for this type of amp may not be so reliable. Granted it does for a Marshall or Fender type circuit. They are much more stable and much less prone to lead dress issues.

I would still bet you do the final lead dress and tube selection of your amps ?

[Mook]

Originally Posted by Carol-AnnAmps

Lead dress and preamp tube selection are the most common two 'tweaks' and yes they are absolutely tweaks. No design I have worked on is more sensitive to lead dress....the Dumble designs are a pretty close second.
Inaudible oscillations have to be found and removed or else the amp will sound constipated or shrill and won't bloom. This is a time-consuming labourious process and sometimes even 2mm of movement on a cable can be the difference between an average and a great amp.
I have seen cases of amps with grid resistors on the second stage, no sheilded cable uses, sheiled cable on the first stage and sheilded cable on both first and second stage. All these are 'tweaks' in order to acheive some tonal or noise reduction goal.
As for tubes, I've seen both West German Siemens and Mullard EL34's. Valvo, Bugle Boy and Mullard preamp tubes seem like the most common. I have only seen one Telefunken and that was in the PI. I can't imagine with this design Ken would use one of those anywhere else but the PI.
So for all those guys who have built a clone of an Express, you should be able to put the bright switch on the max setting, crank the treble and prescence up pretty high, run the volume around 7 and not have a noisy ice-pick sounding amp. If you do, something is wrong and you are not experiencing what a real Express sounds or feels like.
Also with the volume on 0, there should be little to no hiss if the amp is tuned corrrectly, despite what you may have heard on some message boards.

Please don't read this as me being a smart ass, it's just my own experiences based on actually working on a few.

Alan.

Dead, Spot ON!!!

I like Siemens in Ingrid power section. Mullard in v1 and PI, and Bugle Boy in v2.

There's also another thing ALL the clones do not do. It's the interaction between the Treble and the various bright switch settings. The clones put out a pretty nice "Marshally" voice, but they are not TWO amps in one, like a real Express.

Mook

[Mook]

Originally Posted by Smokin Tone

I respectfully disagree.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/sho...d.php?t=286875

Please do not take any of this discussion over to that thread though.

But, that amp was never really produced, right?? It's still a legend.......

Never heard the amp, so I cannot comment.......who made it? That is, if it really even existed........


Mook