M13 'is' changing my sound

[mmcm4]

technically:

most modern modelers sample at at over 44,100Hz (i couldnt find the exact specs for the m13, but the POD X3 samples at 48,000Hz)

since humans can only hear up to about 20,000Hz, by the Nyquist-Shannon theorem, you must sample your signal above 2*20,000Hz for no aliasing. (Hence cd players sample at 44,100Hz)

using a sampling rate above 44,100Hz you can theoretically re-create the original signal with no aliasing

meaning: "artifacts" heard from DSP bypass are pretty imperceptible

[Axe-Man]

Someone much more knowledgeable would no doubt know, but I had the feeling that there was some truncation with DSP oriented gear that causes high end sound errors which we actually can hear. Of course it depends on what it's doing...I think amp modelling maybe more applicable here.

I tried the M13 with software bypass and true bypass and plugged in and out of the amp with just the guitar and/or M13...and I think Joe is spot on.

I didn't try the Vox but my 6262 was definitely darker with true bypass.

Looks like the buffering is making a large difference.

Thinking about it, it is kind of ironic that we have a device with true/relay bypass and that without a buffer, we loose the effect of having a good clean signal because of how the signal chain is loaded.

Maybe the M13 needed a 'no buffer' option that loaded the signal in case we selected true bypass and didn't have any other device which performed this role.

Rich?

[PhilC]

Originally Posted by JoeB63

Yes, but can you hear them? In the case of the M13, I can't. And I'd argue that my guitar-hearing-sensitivity is pretty good. As I said, I really expected to hear a difference when I did my A/B tests. But I couldn't.

I haven't tried the M13 so I don't know, but I've yet to try any other digital piece of gear that I haven't heard and been bothered by having it in series. I found the line 6 rack stuff in series horrible sounding. They've probably changed a few things since then, though.

[Old Fuzzface]

[QUOTE=Axe-Man;7063505]...snip


Looks like the buffering is making a large difference.

Thinking about it, it is kind of ironic that we have a device with true/relay bypass and that without a buffer, we loose the effect of having a good clean signal because of how the signal chain is loaded.

Maybe the M13 needed a 'no buffer' option that loaded the signal in case we selected true bypass and didn't have any other device which performed this role.

..snip [\QUOTE]

Yes, it seems strange to me to offer the two options that are available (DSP bypass and Hard bypass) and not implement the third possibility of a pure analogue buffer.

[dhdfoster]

These discussions usually overlook something that I'm curious about and I wonder how relevant it is. Aside from the limitations of human hearing, what is the frequency response of a typical guitar amp? I imagine it's not capable of reproducing the extreme highs that people cite in discussions about digital conversion.

[tvegas99]

I had an M13 for a few weeks and sold it because IMO it makes my signal FEEL digital and my sound SOUND digital

It stumps me that others don't hear/feel the same thing more often...

that is the tradeoff with digital

[harrlj]

Originally Posted by tvegas99

I had an M13 for a few weeks and sold it because IMO it makes my signal FEEL digital and my sound SOUND digital

It stumps me that others don't hear/feel the same thing more often...

that is the tradeoff with digital

[harrlj]

Originally Posted by dhdfoster

These discussions usually overlook something that I'm curious about and I wonder how relevant it is. Aside from the limitations of human hearing, what is the frequency response of a typical guitar amp? I imagine it's not capable of reproducing the extreme highs that people cite in discussions about digital conversion.

That's true. Guitar amp frequency response generally drops off severely outside of 100Hz to 8 KHz, primarily due to the design of speakers used for most amps. Guitar amp circuits are not high-fidelity and pretty much can't reproduce much over 15 KHz.

That said, the audio range that guitar amps operate in also happens to be the range that human hearing is most sensitive to. Small changes in how a guitar signal is reproduced can definitely be perceived within that range.

Hence the subject of this thread....

[VicLabs]

Originally Posted by tvegas99

I had an M13 for a few weeks and sold it because IMO it makes my signal FEEL digital and my sound SOUND digital

It stumps me that others don't hear/feel the same thing more often...

that is the tradeoff with digital

You know CDs and MP3s are digital, right? It all becomes 1s and 0s at some point.

[tvegas99]

so you gig with a CD player and an MP3

wow, that must sound interesting

[JoeB63]

Originally Posted by tvegas99

I had an M13 for a few weeks and sold it because IMO it makes my signal FEEL digital and my sound SOUND digital

It stumps me that others don't hear/feel the same thing more often...

that is the tradeoff with digital

I've had that experience to some degree with some other digital products. I don't get that at all with the M13. As I said, I really tried to hear/feel that, but it wasn't there. Perhaps there was something wrong with the M13 you had.

[Axe-Man]

My OP isn’t really a criticism as it turns out that the M13 isn’t entirely the culprit.

In fact, I really love my M13.

It's got great dynamics and sounds really clean.

Imagine stacking 4 pedals together and attempting to get a crystal clear signal. It's a snap with the M13 and arranging things in unusual orders is a cinch.

I always wanted a decent pedal board but couldn’t be bothered with the hassle of a whole heap of expensive chained pedals. The noise probs, the power issues and the cost. I had a few pedals but man did it bug me to constantly find they were flat or have to plug in 3 chargers to get them all working...and they created noticeable noise which annoyed me too.

It's now like I've got every decent quality pedal that I need available with the turn of a knob.

It's simple and I'll hang onto it as long as it works.

I'll likely never use more than 4 pedals in a row as I'm not an FX junkie but the concept is (IMO like the original POD) a game changer.

Changing it for the better me thinks.

I like tube/analogue – I’m no purist as I’ve only got two valve amps but I appreciate decent sound for the $$$$. Digital just has so many benefits and is sounding better and better every year.

[VicLabs]

My point is, most musicians crave tone they hear from digital representations, that's where most of the effort is put into creating the best sound. Live music has a marked decrease in sound quality. Who here hasn't "boosted midz" to cut through a mix or bent over in the first song to turn the "unity" gain way up? Is that the tone I'm looking for? I think not.

But when I do sit down to create "my tone" and then I record it into protools, I've instantly turned all that natural stuff into 1s and 0s. Doesn't affect "the feel" of what I'm playing, true. But it does affect the sound, however slight.

If you're playing for the pure enjoyment of sitting in front of your amp and marveling at the harmonics and dynamics that only $$$$ of analog gear can produce, then digital is not audiophile enough. But it's not like we're all idiots out here who can't hear the difference. I for one understand the difference and acknowledge the ubiquitous nature of digital, that's all.

Originally Posted by tvegas99

so you gig with a CD player and an MP3

wow, that must sound interesting

[jetdriver]

Meh. My ears are quite good - and I can't hear the difference. Some folks just have a thing for all analog signal paths. Perhaps it's because they spent big bucks on single use effects and boutique gear, and feel they need to defend their purchases/choices to others and/or themselves.

It really doesn't matter. Buy what you like, what sounds good to you, what motivates you to create music and be done with it.

For the record, I am a self-proclaimed cork-sniffing tone-chaser, and also a recent M9 owner. In my opinion, the M9 sounds great, and is a very useful and convenient music making tool. In relation to the OP, I run mine is DSP bypass, and that has zero effect on tone in my rig. Also, it allows the delays & reverbs to 'spillover' after being switched off, which I like.

[Tone_Terrific]

OP try this:
Insert a buffered effect into your chain AHEAD of the L6.
Compare the sound of that buffer to the L6 buffer by running the L6 TB and then switch in the L6 to check for further deterioration.
Then you know. Sort of.
The buffer in front, IF good may preserve your tone, and might cure the L6 tone change.