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  #46  
Old 02-28-2012, 07:50 AM
KRosser KRosser is offline
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The Jazz melodic also has its own set of modes that are used.

I - Jazz melodic - 1,2,b3,4,5,6,7 - Used over Minor/Major7 chords
II - Dorian b9 - 1,b2,b3,4,5,6,b7 - Used over m7b9 or sus4b9 chords
III- Lydian #5 - 1,2,3,#4,#5,6,7 - Used over Maj7#5 chord
IV - Lydian dominated- 1,2,3,#4,5,6,b7 - used over Dom7#11 chords (or over a normal dom7 if you want to add a lydian feel)
V - Mixolydian b6 - 1,2,3,4,5,b6,b7 - Used over Dom7b13 chords
VI - Aeolian b5 - 1,2,b3,4,b5,b6,b7 - Used over m7b5 or hald diminshed chords.
VII - Altered Scale* - 1,b2,b3,b4,b5,b6,b7 - Used over Dom chords in II-V-I to add tension

*Aka - Super locrian/diminished wholetone
I'm surprised no one posted something like this earlier - everything mentioned here in this thread are more or less the normal modal applications.

The III mode I more often hear called "Lydian Augmented". All those Liebman/Beirach 'modern tunes' where you have a Maj7#5? There's your guy...

The IV mode - I'm pretty sure "Lydian Dominated" is a typo ...of course it's "Lydian Dominant". Typically used for non-functional Dominant chords and Tritone subs but of course that's not the law...

The VI mode I've always heard called "Locrian #2", which makes way more sense to me, as its usage is parallel with the standard Locrian (m7b5 chords)

The V mode, "Mixo b6" I most often see over Dom7 chords going to a Dorian I...

And the VII mode, when I first learned it in the 70's everybody called it "Super Locrian" and now everyone seems to call it "Altered", which makes more sense if you want to relate the name to the function quickly and easily - conventional wisdom says use it over functional Altered Dominant chords but of course that's not the law either, depending on your reverence for 'conventional wisdom'...

The II mode is the only one that's not commonly applied in jazz or popular music, so I've never really heard a handy name for it. One of my students coined the term "Phrygidorian", which I kinda like. You get a standard Min7 chord by harmonizing the tonic, but those extensions (b2 & #6) just sound sorta odd with it to most people I guess...I really like it though...I like to think of it as the introverted late bloomer of the Melodic Minor modes...

Last edited by KRosser; 02-28-2012 at 08:20 AM.
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  #47  
Old 02-28-2012, 08:42 AM
russ6100 russ6100 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRosser View Post
The II mode is the only one that's not commonly applied in jazz or popular music, so I've never really heard a handy name for it. One of my students coined the term "Phrygidorian", which I kinda like. You get a standard Min7 chord by harmonizing the tonic, but those extensions (b2 & #6) just sound sorta odd with it to most people I guess...I really like it though...I like to think of it as the introverted late bloomer of the Melodic Minor modes...
I see it most often prescribed for getting the b9 & #9over dominants but I know John Stowell really digs it on m7 chords.....
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  #48  
Old 02-28-2012, 10:38 AM
JonR JonR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRosser View Post
The II mode is the only one that's not commonly applied in jazz or popular music, so I've never really heard a handy name for it. One of my students coined the term "Phrygidorian", which I kinda like. You get a standard Min7 chord by harmonizing the tonic, but those extensions (b2 & #6) just sound sorta odd with it to most people I guess...I really like it though...I like to think of it as the introverted late bloomer of the Melodic Minor modes...
I think of it as a modal alternative to phrygian - "phrygian natural 6" or "phrygian major 6" ("phrygian #6" suggests something different to me).
It can make for an interesting alternative scale on a phrygian modal chord like a susb9.

I wouldn't personally use it on a major key iii chord, or in any functional capacity - except maybe in its diatonic position, ie D melodic minor on an Em7 in key of D minor (if it's not Em7b5 of course); in which case I'd just think of it as the tonic melodic minor of course, not an E-root mode.
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  #49  
Old 02-28-2012, 02:49 PM
flavaham flavaham is offline
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Originally Posted by JonR View Post
As vaughan says, the sub for D7#9 would be Ab7 - and that would be lydian dominant.
IOW, both D7#9 and Ab7#11 take the same scale: Eb melodic minor. That resolves to Gm or Gmaj, and it does it by half step moves to chord tones on the tonic.

As vaughn neatly sums it up:
"If you land on a chord note of the l chord, then there's no limitations" - that's pretty much it. The "altered scale" concept is just a way of rationalising a whole bunch of half-step moves. Here they all are, leading to chord tones or extension on Gmaj7:
Code:
 
Eb MM  > Gmaj7 (9, 13)
 
Eb       D or E
F        E or F#
Gb       G
Ab       G or A (9)
Bb       A or B
C        B
The Eb MM scale is used on either D7alt or Ab7, makes no difference. It's those half-step transitions that count.
IOW, whatever note you end your V7 phrase on will move by a half-step to a good note on the tonic. Or it can stay the same note (if it's D or Gb/F#).
And of course, many of those half-steps are also a half-step away from notes in the previous chord (Am7).

I agree about starting with arpeggios on the altered chord, to keep phrases strong and simple, but you can use almost any arp from the Eb MM scale, such as Ebm(6) and Fm(7). Make a half-step move on to the next chord, and it will work.
(You don't always have to make the half-step resolution direct or explicit - ie from last note on the V7 to first note on the I. It can be delayed; but those moves are always implied. We may hear them and expect them subliminally, if you don't play them.)

Lydian dominant is (IMO) not normally a good scale on a V7 chord, esp not a 7#9 (it might work on a normal V9 or V13); if you want an alternative scale for a V7#9, it has to be HW dim.
D HW dim = D Eb F F# G# A B C. Same as altered scale at the bottom, like mixolydian at the top.
Again, it gives you half-step moves to the tonic, but not as many as Eb MM. However, if you're resolving to Gm, you do get the option of B>Bb (and A>Bb), which D altered doesn't give you. (But then you lack the nice resolution from Ab or Bb to A as 9th of Gm, very sweet.)
Yeah, I may have been confused there. The two scales I was using over the D7#9 were Eb MM (D Alt/Super Locrian) and D H/W Dim. Either way, for some reason I had not used these sounds over this chord until then and I fell in love with it! Haha. Again, over a rock/jam context rather than jazz, this adds a whole new element. It's really cool (to me) that a lot of these notes jump right out of the sound but don't sound "wrong" at all! Even my drummer at the time commented on some of the sounds I was pulling out. Good stuff!
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  #50  
Old 02-29-2012, 12:41 AM
dewey decibel dewey decibel is offline
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I use that second mode (7sus4b9) a fair amount. I actually like it as a V7 chord heading to a Imaj7. In relation to the Imaj7 you have the b6th and dom7th, but on top of that you have the maj3rd which can make for some interesting lines. To me it has a sickly sweet sound to it.

Then again a lot of my lines like that could simply be explained by thinking V7 for part of the bar then V7b9 or V7alt for the rest. I think that's one of the hardest things to get young players to understand, you can change the chord as you're playing it, throughout the bar. As well as extend chords over the bar line or bring them in early.
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  #51  
Old 02-29-2012, 11:45 AM
dsimon665 dsimon665 is offline
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Originally Posted by dewey decibel View Post
Then again a lot of my lines like that could simply be explained by thinking V7 for part of the bar then V7b9 or V7alt for the rest. I think that's one of the hardest things to get young players to understand, you can change the chord as you're playing it, throughout the bar. As well as extend chords over the bar line or bring them in early.
I was transcribing some Coltrane and noticed he did that a few times. Even with the ii chord...changing it to a dom7alt half way through the measure.
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