If I wrote chord progressions like Bob Dylan

[JonR]

^ Another good point. Quite often the appeal of a recording is in things like production values, or arrangement: the gorgeous tone of an acoustic, a wash of reverb or chorus, a particular combination of instruments, a particular picking pattern, maybe a certain added note on a chord. Not things generally regarded as part of songwriting, but still very valuable things to think about and be in control of.

[dead of night]

When the writers here say they write a melody first: how do you accomplish this? Do you simply hum or sing a whole composition out loud, without your instrument? And then do you record yourself singing?

[willyboy]

OP is slightly misinformed on Beatles chord progressions. I teach harmony in a college music program and have analyzed nearly the entire Beatles catalog of songs and have yet to see any harmony in what they wrote that defies analysis. I use a lot of their music for my lectures. All of it is pretty functional either blues based, major/minor key, mode mixture, some modal stuff, using borrowed chords, secondary dominants, etc and often a mix of these things. Most if not all those progressions can be found in the music they were exposed to as kids - classical, jazz, show music, blues, folk and later the music of India. Not to take away in any respect their brilliance for writing amazing progressions, melody, arrangements and lyrics.

And not all of their tunes were written with chords first, though many likely were. What later became Lennon's tune "Jealous Guy" started life as a pentatonic melody borrowed from an Indian Raga that Lennon reharmonized, for example.

dead of night - When melody comes first, most writers will hum the tune and try to find chords that sound good with the particular notes, pretty simple process.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by dead of night

When the writers here say they write a melody first: how do you accomplish this? Do you simply hum or sing a whole composition out loud, without your instrument? And then do you record yourself singing?

Personally, I begin with a phrase - maybe just a few notes that sound good together, sound good to sing (with or without words). I'm not a great singer, so I'll find the notes I'm singing on my guitar by trial and error. I might try and fit a chord or chords to it then, but I'll also be thinking about where the melody might go next. It's an intuitive process, and I like to think the tune writes itself: from the last note I have, I try and feel where it "wants" to go next - to a higher or lower note? how much higher or lower? or the same note again? Even though my voice is not great, I'll be doing a lot of humming to make sure it still feels good for the voice.
I also (usually) try to have an idea for the lyrics, something to sing about. So I'll probably be struggling with rhymes and scansion too (that's the hardest part!).

Recording yourself is a good idea, if you're just idly noodling around on your instrument. You never know when a nice phrase might emerge, and if you're not recording you can lose it. Same with singing - you can sing a few variants of a phrase you're not sure about, and listening back can reveal which works best.

[Seraphine]

Originally Posted by JonR

Personally, I begin with a phrase - maybe just a few notes that sound good together, sound good to sing (with or without words). I'm not a great singer, so I'll find the notes I'm singing on my guitar by trial and error. I might try and fit a chord or chords to it then, but I'll also be thinking about where the melody might go next. It's an intuitive process, and I like to think the tune writes itself: from the last note I have, I try and feel where it "wants" to go next - to a higher or lower note? how much higher or lower? or the same note again? Even though my voice is not great, I'll be doing a lot of humming to make sure it still feels good for the voice.
I also (usually) try to have an idea for the lyrics, something to sing about. So I'll probably be struggling with rhymes and scansion too (that's the hardest part!).

Recording yourself is a good idea, if you're just idly noodling around on your instrument. You never know when a nice phrase might emerge, and if you're not recording you can lose it. Same with singing - you can sing a few variants of a phrase you're not sure about, and listening back can reveal which works best.

yeppers.. and very cool.

It's amazing when a tune is, complex or not, composed in studio or recording and when it's mixed down... how many times have many of us sat there and felt.. we didn't write that... it has a life of it's own and wrote itself? I love this in live playing especially with a bands or groups cohesive rendering of the same thing or process, somehow. Amazing.

I hear it. Whatever is required I hear it, in application or the work of composing. Much is built up, I imagine, with all of us over years. We have many little bits and pieces that we've worked out well and are very nice, yet haven't found their music song or position yet.

Often I use these nice bits in composition and that may take years.. many years! Like a book on a shelf and one day we finally read it! It's time... the Stars are aligned.

Much of group improvisation is Listening and listening to what the music being formed on the spot is asking.. It, when working, can be on the edge of creating the music and what we play being created by the music, at the same live moments. Sure it can fall apart, yet it can be done. The more we use it the less we lose it. This goes for composing music or ( writing songs ) as good and well.

If anyone finds they can't really come up with it... work with someone else or others.. a little from everyone, plus the feedback from so many ears, can help. The more we do it, the better it gets.. as with most things.

[walternewton]

Originally Posted by JonR

IMO his words don't often sit well on the page by themselves

Do you think any pop/rock lyrics actually do (stand alone as "poetry")?

[snacker]

Originally Posted by dead of night

When the writers here say they write a melody first: how do you accomplish this? Do you simply hum or sing a whole composition out loud, without your instrument? And then do you record yourself singing?

90% of the songwriters i know (including myself) don't write the melody (or words) first, but instead write a chord structure to improvise a melody over - once you have that, then you can start substituting chords in and out to find that great frank black progression you are looking for

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by dead of night

When the writers here say they write a melody first: how do you accomplish this? Do you simply hum or sing a whole composition out loud, without your instrument? And then do you record yourself singing?

There's an ineffable aspect to it. It's hard to say where the spark of creativity comes from.

Usually it starts for me with the hook, or a line or two of melody which just sort of springs forth. THen I develop it, try to bang it into shape to work over a full verse.

I develop the melody the same way I develop a chord progression: I play or sing the part of it that I have and I listen really hard to the silence which comes after. Eventually, I hear something in that silence which I want to play or sing.

Rinse. Repeat.

[davess23]

Dylan tunes are often rich in riffs, whether they're Bob's or were dreamed up by other people. For example, the organ riff on Like A Rolling Stone, the jingle jangle Bach thing that McGuinn used for Tambourine Man, the neat little turnaround riff that separates verses of Just Like a Woman, the organ embellishments to the chorus of I Want You, the iconic rythm of the three chord in Watchtower.

[Carmour]

Dylan is known as a good songwriter because of his lyrics, not because of his arrangement or guitar skills (as good as they may arguably be)..

There is no simple solution to songwriting, sorry to say. You have to work on it and work on it. Write every day. Not every song is going to be good, or even worth recording or performing. It's the process of learning the ropes. If you're going out of your way to play convoluted changes you're doing it wrong. It's not about playing any specific chord or melody, its not about an equation.

This may piss some people off, but I'm of the opinion that only a very small amount of people are actually any good at songwriting.