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  #46  
Old 02-20-2012, 06:18 PM
ManliusGuitar ManliusGuitar is offline
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I don't think the concern or arguement is over the issue of who built them, or how, or their relationships with each builder, but rather I think the issue is more about how they are advertised. I have seen, OP's link included, some advertising that could be construed as non-clear and potentially misleading when it comes to these guitars.

With product like this I really think both PBG and their dealers/advertisers have to delineate the product and that the onus is on them to make this clear to the consumer. I can easily see issues arising in the future, and I wonder if some of the desertions PBG has had are over this.

This speaks nothing of quality, which from what I have heard is top notch, just the need for some clarity in advertising....
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  #47  
Old 02-21-2012, 07:48 AM
amc amc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clint View Post
Let's just say that when I first saw them on the WW site, I wasn't 100% sure who built them (although the price clued me in). Where they are built is a major difference and should be stated upfront without having to see detailed pics of the back of the headstock IMO.
Otherwise, no biggie. I like 'em.
I don't know if PGB builds the Bluesmaster '59 but why not? They are building the Bluesmaster Specials. I'd love to do a shootout between two comparable builds to see how they compare just for sh*ts and grins.
as i understand it, no jg bluesmaster '59s will be built by pbg. johan builds those in sweden.

saul koll has only one model of his 'glide' series built by pbg. saul builds his other models
in his own shop.

all of the talented builders who are part of the pbg family still build other models in
their own shops.

the fact that master builder gene baker is the person building these pbg guitars at the arroyo grande facility is enough for me.................
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  #48  
Old 02-21-2012, 09:36 AM
cugel cugel is offline
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it should be easy to see the concern: you have the same name on a headstock on guitars made 1000s of miles away from each other. now lots of companies do that so what's the problem? the problem is that the selling point and allure of these guitars is just THAT. they were originally made and gained fame being made in one place ie a small shop. the prs analogy is similar by all means. i would never even suggest that these arent great machines. i dont think anyone is. entirely possible that some of the pbg's are better than the "real" ones. the issue is to clearly say they are PBG "edition" and why NOT just put a pbg logo somewhere?
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  #49  
Old 02-21-2012, 11:59 AM
John C John C is offline
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I kind of agree with the sentiment that the PBG logo should be on the guitar somewhere - it could easily be incorporated into their logo on the back of the headstock so it would now read:

"Handmade by
Premier Builders Guild
in
Arroyo Grande
California, USA"

That would clear everything up.
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  #50  
Old 02-23-2012, 05:39 PM
pcovers pcovers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esoteric pete View Post
a good guitar is a good guitar, guys.

if these are good guitars...wel, then they are good guitars.
Ahh, but it isn't that simple. As has been refreshingly noted, and echoed in a second post, exclusivity and perceptions are often a big part of the value proposition in the whole guitar lore and purchase decision, which is not solely tied to the "good is good" concept. If you buy a guitar for $10k, you know there is a significant number of dollars in that total that is buying something other than just measurable quality (.i.e, the things that make a good guitar good).

These PBG guitars may very well have equal amounts of measurable and perceived qualities as the "real thing". However, having them exist may somewhat conflicts the exclusivity concept and risks lowering the value that was invested in that "exclusivity". Look, any rational, objective, knowledgeable player knows that high quality materials, fit, finish, playability, and whatever one calls mojo exists in lots of lower priced guitars. But, like the lion in The Wizard of Oz said, "what have they got that I ain't got"......exclusivity and it comes at a cost.

There is no way Gustavson will ever lose the high level of perceived and real value. But there is definitely a possibility that buyers concerned about watered down exclusivity and confusion from the PBG model could change the market somewhat.
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  #51  
Old 02-23-2012, 08:24 PM
54GT 54GT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc

as i understand it, no jg bluesmaster '59s will be built by pbg. johan builds those in sweden.

saul koll has only one model of his 'glide' series built by pbg. saul builds his other models
in his own shop.

all of the talented builders who are part of the pbg family still build other models in
their own shops.

the fact that master builder gene baker is the person building these pbg guitars at the arroyo grande facility is enough for me.................

This is what I understood to be the case too - the models PBG is building are distinct from what the builders will do anymore (for instance I think you can only get a Koll Glide built by PBG). Never seen anything that makes it look like Bluesmasters or Futuremasters are built by PBG

And as far as quality goes,
I have two prePBG Kolls and tried out a PBG Glide. I understood why Saul says they are up to his standards. similar on two Fanos . But of course this doesn't account for the all-important mojo factor
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  #52  
Old 02-24-2012, 02:24 AM
whitepapagold whitepapagold is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerrod View Post
Which is the shady and pathetic part?
The shady and pathetic part is that is 100% NOT a Gustavsson guitar.

Its a PBG guitar with a stamp of approval.

Thats shady. On Gustavssons part and PBG. But I think the entire concept of PBG is malarky.

They can't market their OWN guitars so they make deals with builders to make fake guitars.

You can call it bile and pretend you have a clue about marketing, but you don't.

The owners of PBG are MARKETING guys, not builders. Period. And builders are whoring out their names to make more money. Thats not an opinion- its a fact.

You can not like how I spin it, but the crux is 100%...

I buy a boutique guitar to get it from the builder. I don't buy boutique guitars from guys who have nothing other than a contract with a builder. If I want that, then Ill buy a Fender.

Its NO MISTAKE the guitars don't say PBG.

Explain that? Exactly. marketing.

But then again, I can actually afford a Gustavsson- I don't need a fake one.
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  #53  
Old 02-24-2012, 02:51 AM
miks miks is offline
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I think PBG is an outsourced facility the same way fender outsources to Japan and Mexico. It just doesn't make sense to have a high end master builder like Johan build these instruments.. if he did he'd have to charge way too much to make them making the instruments unsaleable. Who would pay 7k for a Junior?

I don't think they're fake the same way i don't think MIM or MIJ fenders are fake. They are just a different class of instrument. Some brands opt to show the differentiation (epiphone by gibson, SE by PRS, Rasmus by Suhr) but some don't Fender. It does say MIJ MIM or MIA in the back though ... just like Made in California.

If you know JG's you'll know what you're buying.. and if it floods the market and causes the prices of JG's to drop.. ill be one of the first ones picking the ones made in Malmo Sweden coz they are that great. (I've got 4 )
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  #54  
Old 02-24-2012, 06:01 AM
CS'56 CS'56 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miks View Post
I think PBG is an outsourced facility the same way fender outsources to Japan and Mexico. I don't think they're fake the same way i don't think MIM or MIJ fenders are fake.
)
Fender owns and operates their factory in Mexico. I'm not 100% sure but I think it's the same with Fender in Japan.

I was fooled by the PBG Fano guitars. I had been looking at a lot of them online. I think some of them are fabulous looking guitars. It was not until I started researching Fano on TGP that I found out the Fano guitars I had been looking at were made by another company. If I had bought a PBG Fano and then later found out it was made by another company, No matter HOW much I loved the guitar, I would have felt a little duped.

I want to add. I don't believe what they are doing is wrong.
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  #55  
Old 02-24-2012, 06:06 AM
Route234 Route234 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcovers View Post

There is no way Gustavson will ever lose the high level of perceived and real value.

This is not accurate. They have already gone down in value and they certainly do not sell like hotcakes like they used to. There used to be a waiting list for guitars that JBG was building on spec. Now you can find numerous ones for sale. They dont sell in one day and the price has done down at least 1k.

What so silly though is this has nothing to do with PBG. Comparing a 10k JBG to a 2-3k PBG JBG is totally apples and oranges. You guys are actually trying to draw comparisons between buying a Ferrari and a Toyota Camry. You guys also seem to completely miss the entire point. If PBG was trying to get into the "exclusive" market you are talking about they would have been better off charging 10k for a guitar and putting Gene Bakers name on it. They are making guitars in Gibson/Fender/PRS territory using small builders designs. They are very obviously not trying to compete with 10k guitars.
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  #56  
Old 02-24-2012, 06:09 AM
onemind onemind is offline
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So does a B3 have more intrinsic value (as a function of original value) Since they're built in Gene's shop?
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  #57  
Old 02-24-2012, 06:09 AM
Route234 Route234 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitepapagold View Post
The shady and pathetic part is that is 100% NOT a Gustavsson guitar.

Its a PBG guitar with a stamp of approval.

Thats shady. On Gustavssons part and PBG. But I think the entire concept of PBG is malarky.

They can't market their OWN guitars so they make deals with builders to make fake guitars.

You can call it bile and pretend you have a clue about marketing, but you don't.

The owners of PBG are MARKETING guys, not builders. Period. And builders are whoring out their names to make more money. Thats not an opinion- its a fact.

You can not like how I spin it, but the crux is 100%...

I buy a boutique guitar to get it from the builder. I don't buy boutique guitars from guys who have nothing other than a contract with a builder. If I want that, then Ill buy a Fender.

Its NO MISTAKE the guitars don't say PBG.

Explain that? Exactly. marketing.

But then again, I can actually afford a Gustavsson- I don't need a fake one.
Personally I dont think anyone should be talking like this. Calling people "shady and pathetic" just because you dont like something is absurd. Im a little surprised that they let you have that one to be honest. Its so rude and ignorant and it goes against the spirit of these discussions entirely.

Who cares what kind of guitar you can afford?
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  #58  
Old 02-24-2012, 08:14 AM
John C John C is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitepapagold View Post
The shady and pathetic part is that is 100% NOT a Gustavsson guitar.

Its a PBG guitar with a stamp of approval.

Thats shady. On Gustavssons part and PBG. But I think the entire concept of PBG is malarky.

They can't market their OWN guitars so they make deals with builders to make fake guitars.

You can call it bile and pretend you have a clue about marketing, but you don't.

The owners of PBG are MARKETING guys, not builders. Period. And builders are whoring out their names to make more money. Thats not an opinion- its a fact.

You can not like how I spin it, but the crux is 100%...

I buy a boutique guitar to get it from the builder. I don't buy boutique guitars from guys who have nothing other than a contract with a builder. If I want that, then Ill buy a Fender.

Its NO MISTAKE the guitars don't say PBG.

Explain that? Exactly. marketing.

But then again, I can actually afford a Gustavsson- I don't need a fake one.
Builders go out of business because they are builders/artists, not businessmen. If the PBG keeps these guys from shutting down, then it's a good thing.

That being said I believe that they should keep to the original idea of PBG building different models than the individual builders produce - giving the builders more exposure and ensuring their plate is filled. I completely agree with you that these guitars should physically say "Premier Builders Guild" on them somewhere - as I mentioned in my other post they could easily add that to their current "built in Arroyo Grande" decal and make that somewhat more prominent on the back of the headstock.

Maybe this is an experiment that is going to fail - Schroder has already left the fold and returned to independence. Maybe PBG shouldn't be in the building business and should just focus on marketing, advertising and reping these builders so the builders can spend 100% on luthiery. When I say this it is not a knock on Gene Baker and his team; Gene & Co. are among the best out there with their B3 guitars.
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  #59  
Old 02-24-2012, 08:26 AM
dougk dougk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManliusGuitar View Post
I don't think the concern or arguement is over the issue of who built them, or how, or their relationships with each builder, but rather I think the issue is more about how they are advertised. I have seen, OP's link included, some advertising that could be construed as non-clear and potentially misleading when it comes to these guitars.

With product like this I really think both PBG and their dealers/advertisers have to delineate the product and that the onus is on them to make this clear to the consumer. I can easily see issues arising in the future, and I wonder if some of the desertions PBG has had are over this.

This speaks nothing of quality, which from what I have heard is top notch, just the need for some clarity in advertising....
This I think is the truth here. PBG really works hard IMO to keep this from being murky but a lot of their dealers are sure trying to be vague about it.

Personally? I've played a bunch of the PBG built guitars and I wouldn't hesitate to own one or a few.

I can completely see the the conundrum though, say I want a Koll. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the PBG ones but I consider (and am lucky too) Saul a friend. I don't so much want the guitar as just a guitar but rather I would rather enjoy the process of working with Saul. Is it rational? Not really but I can completely understand how people might feel about PBG.

Ofcourse the reality is I CAN still buy a guitar from Saul, it just has to be his higher end non-glide models and that is completely fine. You can still buy guitars from Johann, just not these ones that PBG builds. ect ect
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  #60  
Old 02-24-2012, 08:43 AM
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fretnot fretnot is offline
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Originally Posted by dougk View Post
I don't so much want the guitar as just a guitar but rather I would rather enjoy the process of working with Saul. Is it rational?
and I think that is the crux of it.
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