Played a real '58 Stratocaster last night . . .

[Matt Ivaliotes]

Gear discussions often hit this one wall: Some need to assert the innate superiority of something (a favorite amp, a favorite pedal, a pickup, a vintage guitar), and insist that nothing else comes close. Others say that it's not necessarily so. Someone inevitably insists that anyone who doubts the inherent superiority of the uber-thing simply hasn't experienced it or otherwise doesn't "get it." And ultimately, the only intuitively and experimentally sound conclusion is that it is all individual. All we know for sure based on the OP's story is that a 1958 Strat he recently played was utterly fantastic - for him.

This stuff really is individual. It's why I don't believe in "running the racks" at a guitar store. For one, they all need a setup and string change before I am able to get my own personal nth degree of comfort and sound out of them. For two, on any given day, out of a wall of 25 guitars, I'd pick a different guitar as the best. Impressions are just that. For me, one day's "too dark" guitar will be "rich and sweet" the next.

Avoiding absolutes is the only way to talk about tone and not ruffle feathers.

[patentcad]

Originally Posted by Matt Ivaliotes

This stuff really is individual.

You would think everybody would understand this and not get their guitar panties in a bunch over threads like this one.

[Stratm69]

Originally Posted by datguytim

....and it was a revelation for me. Keep in mind I'm a Les Paul/Gibson/Tele/Gretsch guy - owned but never bonded with Strats, but dig the tones.

HOLY SH*T!!!!

This was hands down the best Strat I've ever played, heard, etc. in my entire life!!!! I've played lots (Custom Shops, expensive Relics, etc.) and NONE of them come CLOSE to the mojo level, tone, of the real '58. the pickups sounded phenomenal - it was the PERFECT sound - no repro comes close, I don't care who makes 'em. Played it through a real '65 Vibrolux Reverb & a high quality cable - tone to die for.

Point: there is something to be said for 50+ year old wood, old wire, and whatnot. It simply can't be replicated in my opinion.

Now if I only had about $30K extra laying around . . . .

And yet there's a lot of vintage guitars that can be complete duds too. It's the luck of the draw really.

You could go through a slew of vintage Strats before finding the right one, the same could probably go for modern custom shops too. However, I think there is more consistency in todays Strats and you can find a ton of great ones at a shop such as Wildwood as opposed to a a single, great sounding vintage Strat. Plus with vintage guitars, you would still be paying big bucks for it even if it's completely dead. Custom Shops all the way in my opinion.

[patentcad]

Originally Posted by Stratm69

And yet there's a lot of vintage guitars that can be complete duds too. It's the luck of the draw really.

I fully expect they are mostly duds. I also believe the killer ones are rare, and when you find them, they are utterly killer. That's the impression I get from all the threads I've read and the one true vintage piece I owned.

[DC1]

Originally Posted by peskypesky

i hear what you're saying, but if it was true that older instruments sounded so much better, don't you think in just one of these tests, they would have come out ahead?

i'm not going to say that old instruments DON'T sound better, but I remain very skeptical of people who get on internet forums and rave about how some "vintage" guitar from the 1950s sounds SO much better than newer guitars. received wisdom is often just snake oil.

Right, but there is also a huge number of definitions of "sounds good". I loved the one I played, Norman said I was "a great player" while playing it. I played better with that one because all of MY little stylistic things, voicings, riffs and such just jumped off of it. Sounded nice? Yes, but I played nice because the guitar liked what I was doing. Scientifically, this is likely to be sympathetic pieces of wood for the neck and body, that resonate at the same, or complementary frequencies, and those frequencies happen to be at the pitches the guitar is tuned to, and the keys I play in. Also, the older and drier wood tends to be more lively. There may be PU issues going on too, but they are different from new guitars and what you hear and feel is real.

To put that in perspective, (which is what you are doing above) my customs are silly-good guitars and play like a dream. They are very close on all levels and fit me to perfection. I would never trade one of them for the old strat. AND, I suspect in a test where someone else plays and I listen, I am not sure I could discern the old one compared to my own customs.

Playing them all is a different story, and the interaction between the player and the instrument cannot be discounted here or we will lose understanding. It's not a placebo and it's not confirmation bias. Some old guitars, just a few IMO will almost make you believe in magic. This is the player's perspective, not the listeners and it is much harder to test for.

dc

[JP~)]

Originally Posted by rwijaya

well, i played my friend 64 strat that amazing sounding and it has 7.25 radii with very old strings on it, its his collection (a shame really). however when i strum the strings, the whole body just vibrates. and it weight probably only 7.5 pounds. Stock frets actually the frets is pretty low. and the guitar is completely not setup well. however, one of the most resonance strat i have every played through.

just sayin'

i'm disagree on what op said, if its old wood, it has to be great sounding guitar. that is not always the case.

I agree with you there, but what the OP said was this...

Point: there is something to be said for 50+ year old wood, old wire, and whatnot. It simply can't be replicated in my opinion.

and I agree with him there...there's something about the sound of old wood and wire that has been played through for years that can't be replicated. I didn't read where he said that new instruments aren't good....and I can see where this topic can hit alot of hot button topics for people, but having a mix of old and new instruments myself...I can definitely see where he is coming from

[rwijaya]

Originally Posted by JP~)

I agree with you there, but what the OP said was this...



and I agree with him there...there's something about the sound of old wood and wire that has been played through for years that can't be replicated. I didn't read where he said that new instruments aren't good....and I can see where this topic can hit alot of hot button topics for people, but having a mix of old and new instruments myself...I can definitely see where he is coming from

oh well, this is a discussion forums right. IMHO all i am saying is, i also had played lots of oh so vintage instrument that is a total dud or a total dog. just because it was old or played a lots at those vintage guitars time, doesn't automatically makes it a great sounding guitar or the holy grail.

not being an ass to what the op said, but i just found it very amusing.

[peskypesky]

Originally Posted by Matt Ivaliotes

This stuff really is individual. It's why I don't believe in "running the racks" at a guitar store. For one, they all need a setup and string change before I am able to get my own personal nth degree of comfort and sound out of them.

agreed for the most part. when going into a guitar store and trying out guitars, its paramount to remember that there's a very good chance the guitars are not set up to your liking.

its hard to remember that though. you pick up a guitar, it plays lousy, you pick up another and it plays well. you naturally think the second one is better, when it just might be a 15-minute set-up that is the only difference.

[patentcad]

I don't know about you guys, but I kind of need my own amp and guitar as a reference point when I'm comparing guitars. Otherwise it's not so easy to hear the tonal nuances that set one guitar apart from another.

[Kmaz]

Also depends on just how you happen to be feeling/playing on a particular day. Some days are better than others and a good player will sound good no matter what he's spanking on.

That said, I'd love to have the opportunity to experiment with a lefthand vintage Fender.

[AnotherAvatar]

The resolution to this question will not happen here, but in the most logical of places if you want to chase this down. I took the time to explore this, found answers. It's been resolved for me. That said...

I'm happy for the OP if he heard and felt a great musical instrument. That's always a nice experience, although it tends to ruin us for the crap we have at home.

[JP~)]

Originally Posted by rwijaya

oh well, this is a discussion forums right. IMHO all i am saying is, i also had played lots of oh so vintage instrument that is a total dud or a total dog. just because it was old or played a lots at those vintage guitars time, doesn't automatically makes it a great sounding guitar or the holy grail.

not being an ass to what the op said, but i just found it very amusing.

not trying to be an ass either...but the good ones can be pretty good, and as the OP pointed out, can not be replicated. If there was a way to make a new instrument sound old...it would have been done already. People have been trying for years

The violin articles that were posted have been around for years. The guy who makes the instruments in that study had been trying for years to make a new instrument that sounds old...finally in the end I think he did that study to substantiate that his instruments, while not sounding like the old ones actually sound better and that people couldn't even tell what an old one sounds like anyway. Unfortunately, he failed to convince the musicians of that as they still prefer the old ones and in the end he could not justify a high asking price for his instruments....and he could not get any one 'known' to play them. There is still no market for them and he has not made his fortune.

If you want more info on it, search some of the violin forums...you will get more then you are looking for. Personally, i can say without doubt that a good old violin will have qualities that a well made new instrument can't replicate, although the new instrument can and will sound very good in it's own right. I actually had one in my house for 3 months and heard it compared daily with a quality new instrument played by a very good violinist, so my opinion is based on that as far as violins are concerned.

[peskypesky]

again, i'm not saying the guitar the OP played did not sound awesome or play great. i'm just skeptical that it is the age of the guitar that accounts for its positive characteristics. and science, so far, is on my side.

[patentcad]

Originally Posted by peskypesky

again, i'm not saying the guitar the OP played did not sound awesome or play great. i'm just skeptical that it is the age of the guitar that accounts for its positive characteristics. and science, so far, is on my side.

Let's leave science out of this. This is guitars.











Your science has no power here.

[Kmaz]

Science!