Premier Builders Guild "confusion" issue....

[aarondavis]

Originally Posted by mslugano

As you like. Our opinions concerning truth in advertising are not going to converge.

OK, here's an edit to my post:

Here's a marketing issue that hit's home with everyone. Can you pass this one? When you market yourself for a job does your resume spell out all items you may lack experience in, concepts and situations that you have struggles with? In the interview, do you answer questions in a way that highlight your pluses? Or do you make sure each answer spells out your strengths and weaknesses in equal light? I'm not talking about lying, which is clear cut. I'm talking about where you place the focus. Are you 100% clear in every regard selling yourself?

Again, what is your truth in advertising here?

[anyone]

Originally Posted by mslugano

Obviously, you and I are going to disagree over this. I think they are two different things and yours is not a valid analogy.

PBG is making authorized replicas but, unnecessarily, not marketing them as such and to me that's uncool.

Authorized replicas....?

I don't know anything about you other than your telling compulsion to slam PBG at any opportunity. Are they that big of a threat?
Have you taken much of a stand against the real phonies - people who make G and F replicas (a more accurate use of the word...)?

There's some kind of synergy with your and CDaughtry's posting patterns that begs for full disclosure...

[mslugano]

Originally Posted by anyone

Authorized replicas....?

I don't know anything about you other than your telling compulsion to slam PBG at any opportunity. Are they that big of a threat?
Have you taken much of a stand against the real phonies - people who make G and F replicas (a more accurate use of the word...)?

There's some kind of synergy with your and CDaughtry's posting patterns that begs for full disclosure...

First, full disclosure...I have no stake whatsoever in ANY guitar company and I do not know nor have I EVER corresponded with CDaughtry. I do have strong principles, though.

Second, I did not call PBG guitars phonies nor have I questioned their quality. What they are, to reiterate for your clarity, are "authorized replicas" and they are being marketed in such a way as to purposely (and unnecessarily) obscure their true pedigree.

[mslugano]

Originally Posted by aarondavis

OK, here's an edit to my post:

Here's a marketing issue that hit's home with everyone. Can you pass this one? When you market yourself for a job does your resume spell out all items you may lack experience in, concepts and situations that you have struggles with? In the interview, do you answer questions in a way that highlight your pluses? Or do you make sure each answer spells out your strengths and weaknesses in equal light? I'm not talking about lying, which is clear cut. I'm talking about where you place the focus. Are you 100% clear in every regard selling yourself?

Again, what is your truth in advertising here?

Let's try and stay on topic, OK? Whether or not I lie about my CV or whether some other company does or does not operate in an ethical manner is not the issue nor would a false CV, etc. justify PBG's (or anyone else's) practices. In other words, even if I were a terrible hypocrite your post is pure straw-man fallacy.

We're talking about PBG and I won't repeat my position there...I think you know it, and, frankly, I don't think you have an open mind about PBG for some reason.

[Route234]

Originally Posted by mslugano

I don't think you have an open mind about PBG for some reason.

Im surprised you werent struck by lightning when you posted this.

[anyone]

Originally Posted by mslugano

First, full disclosure...I have no stake whatsoever in ANY guitar company and I do not know nor have I EVER corresponded with CDaughtry. I do have strong principles, though.

Second, I did not call PBG guitars phonies nor have I questioned their quality. What they are, to reiterate for your clarity, are "authorized replicas" and they are being marketed in such a way as to purposely (and unnecessarily) obscure their true pedigree.

Like I said, I don't know.
Your vehemence on the issue just seems out of proportion.
I think PBG's are more like "licensed models" rather than "authorized replicas". You don't seem to be too concerned with the pedigree of JG's apprentice... or the flood of unauthorized Replicas that have a far greater propensity to deceive the uneducated masses... or the marketing moires of certain custom shops...

[PBG]

Rarely have I weighed in on a thread as I am very busy trying to run a business. The business in question, PBG, was started by my partner , Michael and I out of a passion for great music and great instruments. That's it! We love music and we love the people that make great music. Let's face it , though, any of us playing Eric Clapton's guitar or Steve Kimock's amp, or (insert your favorite player) 's instrument here, you will not sound like them, you will only be playing the same instrument they play, most likely trying to get their tone.

This thread is fascinating to us on so many levels and let me start by saying it is actually very flattering that all of you would be so passionate about something that we created. Thanks for that. Even to those of you who have negatively attempted to slander us, our builders, our business model, and most recently our advertising agency, it is exceptional to think that we have made such a huge impact on you in such a short time. This thread alone has over 7000 views and is some 13 pages deep with responses, arguments, comments, some good, some not so good, some spoken from a point of educated history, some not so much. Nonetheless, staggering.

So let me give my two cents and hopefully we can put this puppy to rest. PBG is a not a brand it is an umbrella company (hence the reason it is not on the headstock), that is set up to assist boutique guitar and amplifier builders grow their business and improve their chances of making a better living while at the same time making a valid attempt to create new legendary brands. All brands start somewhere, in our case, the brands under the PBG umbrella were mostly one and two man shops. Please keep in mind, our goal has never been to mislead the public, but to give opportunities to builders they might otherwise not have. Truth be told, most builders referred to on the GearPage have helpers, or have parts made by outside vendors , some have them painted by others. The bottom line is, though, when you buy that guitar, you are buying their brand. Unfortunately this is a fact that is not often noted or even mentioned.

So here is what we do that most one man two man shops can't. We advertise and participate in promotions a lot. We have administrative staffing to assist in clerical needs. We have a VP of sales that travels the globe introducing these instruments to people that have never seen nor heard of them before. We make partnerships with great places like TRI Studios . We service professional touring musicians at a level that one man shops simply can't do.

We set up two shops that are staffed by the finest craftsmen in the industry. We take the utmost pride in every product we ship. Our guitar shop, where our Master Builder Gene Baker, resides, is one of many wonders. Not only is Gene one of the best luthiers on the planet, one thing I think I could get at least most of you to agree to mutually, it is a place that is like no other guitar shop on earth. There, we manufacture guitars from five different builders, whom we believe are the best builders on the planet. We have faith in all of them. In addition, pay close attention here, we have mutual agreements with all of them! They are involved. They have a total say in what we do . They participate in wood selection and provide 100% of the specifications for their instruments. They have the ability to say "stop shipping" and we need to adhere to that. They choose the types of pickups and fret wire. They spec the bridge,tuners, paint, and the fingerboard material, etc. on and on. They are totally involved.

Upon our opening discussions to begin PBG, we enlisted many people who were more knowledgeable about the industry than we were. Along the way , we have certainly, as any new business, made some mistakes. But we never veered off our initial goal of creating the best instruments money can buy and making them accessible to more people.

You do not have to like our business model. You do not have to like our amps or guitars either. But please keep in mind we have taken a business from zero in a very short period of time and have made it into something that you all still want to debate day in and day out! We must have done something right. We appreciate you for that.

In addition, our builders, Gene Baker, Saul Koll, Dennis Fano, Roger Giffin, Johan Gustavsson, Bill Krinard, and Mark Bartel are all still here. They are supportive of the concept. They also have families and lives that they want to better. Why not allow them to do that with your blessing? Your negativaty towards us , hurts them directly.

PBG is not for everyone. But we have spent a lot of time building something that is really great for all of those involved. I urge you all, go play the instruments. Close your eyes and let us know what you think. If you can honestly say at that point, the instruments are no good, feel free to share. Until you have done that, though, please , respect our builders and our craftsmen and women making honest livings doing something they love.

Thanks for listening.

Best regards,

Howard Swimmer, President
Premier Builders Guild

[tdarian]

I think that's fair. Thanks Howard.

[Jaan]

Great response Howard. Thanks for your insight!

[54GT]

The other thing that all of the great business minds slagging the business model seem to forget is a simple truth: the builders own their brands and are free to leverage those brands how they see fit. That is their right as the creators of that brand asset. Don't like what they are doing with it, don't buy it. Between that and the fact that there is a clear distinction in what models are available via PBG, much more heat than light to the objections.

[sondich]

Mental note to self - next thread start requiring full participation of the TGP membership, include "PBG" in subject line

[Husky]

Originally Posted by aarondavis

For the quadrillionth time... you're talking about the "marketeers" that all these builders *signed* up to deal with. So, you're really questioning the builders too. No matter how many times the valid analogy is repeated, that Paul Reed Smith, Suhr and Tom Anderson have their names on guitars - not built by them, but their designs are built and marketed as *their* guitars - with their consent. Wow. Some people just don't want people to be able to run their own business as they see fit.

No horse in this race or opinion but since my name got pulled in to this......I am 100% hands on checking guitars throughout the day. Any issues come to me immediately and I am on the premises 10 hours a day supervising. So it isn't really the same, I am completely involved with the build process on a personal level. As far as Rasmus goes it still may be different since ALL the Rasmus guitars get rebuilt and checked as well as all fret dressing done here, they don't ship until the same crew inspects them as well as all the guitars. Our Pro series and Custom series are all built by the same builders and machines on the same premises as well. Tom Anderson paints and many times buffs his guitars as did I.

The PBG type of format is exactly what Grover Jackson wanted to do before I started Suhr Guitars. In fact he was approaching myself was going to contact builders like Gene and others. His idea was to have a central manufacturing hub and we would design and go on the road to sell and network. Seemed interesting but I prefer to get covered in sawdust and paint and feel it would have been too confusing for me personally to try and follow two paths at once. Not that it isn't a great model. As far as how they choose to market the instruments is really their business.
Carry on

[aarondavis]

Originally Posted by mslugano

Let's try and stay on topic, OK? Whether or not I lie about my CV or whether some other company does or does not operate in an ethical manner is not the issue nor would a false CV, etc. justify PBG's (or anyone else's) practices. In other words, even if I were a terrible hypocrite your post is pure straw-man fallacy.

We're talking about PBG and I won't repeat my position there...I think you know it, and, frankly, I don't think you have an open mind about PBG for some reason.

It's common to try to shut down a debate by throwing out a textbook rhetorical logical fallacy "trump card". But the point, to many, is quite logical. Do you apply the same "truth in advertising" standard to your own product, yourself as a productive resource, that you expect every entity conducting business to adhere too? There may not be a single entity that meets your *perfect* ethical standard in the universe of market exchange. If you expect others to adhere to this perfect standard, one would hope you do so in marketing your own product. It is also meant to highlight the lack of real world examples of your perfect standard.

[KennethC]

Thanks for clarifying matters, Howard. I personally think the PBG is a great idea, and have no personal issue with the way things are being handled. Kudos to you guys!

Having said that, I don't think having the naysayers play the PBG-built guitars is going to change their stance. Their issue isn't with the quality of the PBG-built guitars (since some of them haven't touched or seen one in person), but rather the way they're marketed.

To be fair to their argument, while you say that the builders are "involved" through the selection of the type of wood and parts, they aren't there to supervise the actual builds themselves before the guitars are shipped out, like they would in their own shops. It seems like Gene is the one supervising the guitar builds from start to end. Therein lies a fundamental difference to the build process, despite Gene's excellent building skills (a friend's Baker is one of the best set neck's I've played). Frankly, it wouldn't even matter if Gene built a better JG than Johan himself - the guitar still wasn't supervised by Johan. So I guess the question they are posing is how has PBG decided to indicate this difference?

Maybe you could shed even more light on how the builders are involved in the build process? Perhaps it would show a lot more involvement than what the naysayers think?

The other thing is, if all the builders with the PBG are indeed in 100% agreement with how things are being managed/marketed, without being coerced into anything, there's little to be argued against. Then, the naysayers can choose to continue placing the PBG business guys in the hot seat if they wish to, but should also include the builders who are part of the guild.

[GAT]

Originally Posted by PBG

In addition, our builders, Gene Baker, Saul Koll, Dennis Fano, Roger Giffin, Johan Gustavsson, Bill Krinard, and Mark Bartel are all still here.

Best regards,

Howard Swimmer, President
Premier Builders Guild

I didn't think those builders were actually "building" the guitars that Gene is building...am I missing something? I thought Johan was NOT building those guitars.