Regarding "shoot-outs"

[Terry McInturff]

I just responded to an email I recieved from a fellow TGPer, and thought that I'd solicit your comments since I do not know if my take on this is correct.

The email was along the lines of "I own xxx and have played several zzz's and I think it would be great if there was a direct head to head shootout between these two guitars (they are different guitars from 2 different builders, but with similar tonal intent)".

My answer was "I do not think that an objective comparison that had real professional value would be possible, or if it was, it would be hard to do correctly".

My reasoning being that "TONE", "APPEARANCE" and "FEEL" are so completely subjective that head to head comparisons would have little real value.

Its fun to think about providing soundclips that might let a viewer draw his own opinions, however, there are challenges with that as well..not the least being the average quality of the computer playback systems out there and more

The only non-subjective items that could be critiqued fairly would lie within the realm of measurable things such as accuracy of fretting, action settings (as compared to stated claims by the builder where they exist), quality of components, wiring quality, and the like.

I am sure that a neutral professional luthier of great standing could be found to perform this sort of in depth checking of things, but would that be of much value to the average guitar enthusiast?

It is fun to think about, however, I just do not believe that a believable, informative, objective, world-class shootout between two high-end guitars is possible.

What do YOU think?

[t3oi]

I like what Ruokangas did with the Unicorn comparison video to a '59 Burst and modern LPs. I agree that the feel in your hands cannot be conveyed through the video, but any chance to hear a guitar, especially in reference to a known standard, is good in my book.

[eliot1025]

I agree with you, Terry. The subjective aspects are the most important and/because the differences in measurable features would be relatively small in high-end guitars. Isn't that one of the main reasons they are all high-end; certain aspects of the build will be reliably high quality in all world-class guitars?

[Terry McInturff]

Originally Posted by eliot1025

I agree with you, Terry. The subjective aspects are the most important and/because the differences in measurable features would be relatively small in high-end guitars. Isn't that one of the main reasons they are all high-end; certain aspects of the build will be reliably high quality in all world-class guitars?

I'd say that in general you are right, the average QC has never been better....and nobody is perfect...

Having said that you might be surprised, altho what I consider important may not be important to others. And again nobody is perfect including me of course.

And, it seems that quite often there are no claims of hard specifications that could be verified.

[narad]

Originally Posted by SonicGator

I like what Ruokangas did with the Unicorn comparison video to a '59 Burst and modern LPs. I agree that the feel in your hands cannot be conveyed through the video, but any chance to hear a guitar, especially in reference to a known standard, is good in my book.

Yea, that was very well done.

[beorn]

Originally Posted by Terry McInturff

What do YOU think?

Well, that's easy. I think you ought to send me a Carolina, and Johan can send me a Bluesmaster, and Stevens can send me an LJ, and Juha can send me a Unicorn.

And I will then compare the hell out of them and post the results.

More seriously -- of course you are right that this is an intensely subjective area.

Even so, it is still useful to me to hear clips like the Ruokangas one previously mentioned, or the similar Probett one, in which Spanish Cedar vs. Mahogany was the focus.

However subjective that kind of information is... it's still less subjective than the adjectives of other people on sites like this -- "killer" or "resonant" top the hit list. Especially since I have never even met those people, nor heard them play in any way at all.

Some form of sound, in other words, trumps no form of sound.

(In cases where there's been extensive personal interaction, that might be different, and adjectives really might be helpful. I believe CDaughtry and Matte have that kind of history, for instance. But I am new to this site.)

[kevinhifi]

There was a thread a while back about whether people prefer to have a great player at a guitar shop play an instrument for them as a demo versus playing the instrument themselves. A surprising number of people said they prefer the former to the latter. I, personally, don't care how a guitar sounds in some other person's hands. I only care about how it feels in mine. So I would obviously agree with the OP. Others are more interested in how it sounds as an observer, and to them, the shootout may be quite valuable.

[t3oi]

Originally Posted by kevinhifi

There was a thread a while back about whether people prefer to have a great player at a guitar shop play an instrument for them as a demo versus playing the instrument themselves. A surprising number of people said they prefer the former to the latter. I, personally, don't care how a guitar sounds in some other person's hands. I only care about how it feels in mine. So I would obviously agree with the OP. Others are more interested in how it sounds as an observer, and to them, the shootout may be quite valuable.

Depends on if it was an "either/or" situation. I would always prefer to try a guitar for myself, but there are many cases where it is just not feasible to do so. There are no boutique shops here in Vancouver, I have no access to a Unicorn or Terry's Carolina to try for myself.

In this case, if I am interested in a builder, I'll have to base my decision partially on clips and other information I can find of that guitar.

[matte]

i can't play an mpeg, a jpeg or an mp3. playing an instrument is a completely tactile experience for me.

that being said, i can look at a guitar (check the specs) and decide whether or not i want to investigate further.

i'm just that shallow.

Originally Posted by kevinhifi

There was a thread a while back about whether people prefer to have a great player at a guitar shop play an instrument for them as a demo versus playing the instrument themselves. A surprising number of people said they prefer the former to the latter. I, personally, don't care how a guitar sounds in some other person's hands. I only care about how it feels in mine. So I would obviously agree with the OP. Others are more interested in how it sounds as an observer, and to them, the shootout may be quite valuable.

[wes37]

More importantly, what's the point? Say I have an XXX guitar, and it sounds slightly better than YYY guitar with amp X on the same settings. That doesn't mean that XXX will sound better with a different amp, or different settings on amp X.

What I look for is construction quality, parts quality, tuning stability, and whether or not I like the guitar's tone. Beyond that, we're talking about the right temperature and humidity levels required to best sniff corks.

[2leod]

Originally Posted by Terry McInturff

It is fun to think about, however, I just do not believe that a believable, informative, objective, world-class shootout between two high-end guitars is possible.

What do YOU think?

I was at the GAL conference in Tacoma last year and they had a "shootout" of sorts - any of the builders represented who wished to participate lined up their guitars next to the stage, one guy selected them, passed them to another guy who took them into a side room to make sure they were in tune, returned and handed them to another guy who played the same phrases and a tune (as well as a lick or two if the guitar was designed differently, as in a harp style etc.) - it was a treat to hear them all side by side. After the 5th or 6th guitar I was having a tough time sorting them in my mind but a couple stood out from the crowd, and the event was repeated later in a smaller room with 20 or 30 ukuleles being played by Kimo Hussey - that was a real treat!

Now these were acoustic guitars - throw an amp into the melee, different pickup values, characteristics etc. and trying to dial in respective sweet spots in these sort of chains, then I think the task gets exponentially more difficult.

[iansegal]

I'm not sure there's a golden answer to this question. For starters, I think that demos and shoot-outs are fun just for the hell of it. As to the value of A/B'ing.... they certainly can't tell you how the guitar feels and actually plays, but I don't think anyone labors under the delusion that they can.

As for sound, a comparison will show a difference. So comparing a few different guitars will likely show different sounds. The problem is how "useable" that result is as a tool to inform a buyer. There are just so many variables across different makers (including, of course, the different spec options) let alone pieces of wood in otherwise identical models. Especially since electronics are so easily swapped, it's hard to isolate where the guitar itself sits—not to mention the biases of how the amp is dialed in. In this sense, even if you might find a "winner" in a shootout, it doesn't necessarily follow that you could go buy that model and get the same result. Which is to say, it's a matter of variables and statistics. I would love to see a shootout that compares acoustic readings of, say, five copies of five models. (Goes without saying you'd listen to the damn things too). Whatever differences are there could be an informative baseline as to what a builder is offering.

[Ian Anderson]

It would be much like a wet t shirt contest.

[Route234]

Id like to see people play a bunch of the instruments from people rummaging around TGP. It would be fun. Comparisons of tone will be the usual quilting circle, but it would still be fun to see and read about!

[Malinoski]

Originally Posted by Ian Anderson

It would be much like a wet t shirt contest.

Or a slam dunk contest.
Not really what the game is about.