i suck at "soloing"

[Jon]

You have to have a music vocabulary to be able to improvise - most improvisers aren't playing something totally original when they solo - it's usually variations on a number of things that they normally play - they have a vocabulary of musical phrases which they use to build solos. These phrases can be combined in various ways and adapted to fit different chord structures, tempos, feels etc. Some players have a massive vocabulary, whilst others have a few key licks that they've made their own.

From the sounds of it, you don't have this vocabulary yet - if this is the case, you just need to start learning lots of licks and solos - if you're playing along to SRV or Clapton, steal their licks - learn a complete solo by one of them...then another and another. Listen to solos that you like and pick out key phrases - learn them and start using them - often it's as much the rhythmic phrasing as the actual notes which makes it work......try imagining that you're playing brass riffs in a soul tune....this can really help you to play in distinct phrases rather than just meandering lead lines.

Ultimately these licks that you've learnt will morph into something uniquely yours, especially if each time you learn one, you play around with it, changing things and playing variations on it, experimenting with timing, dynamics etc.

[Jet Age Eric]

Originally Posted by lankybass

I could do much much much better in terms of actually having my solo speak with the song as we've said.

I honestly don't think I have anything to say on guitar personally. I'm not soulful at all like SRV or Clapton or any of the inumerably greats. But I think I can help convey what the song itself is saying. That's my goal here.. You helped me realize that so thanks

I'm in a three piece and I'm self taught on guitar and I don't know what the hell I'm doing, but I've been finding that just "going for it" (with some idea of where I'm starting from) has served me will with audiences. I'm really from the Television/Dinosaur Jr./Built to Spill school of guitar solos, with a classic rock foundation and a minor in Sonic Youth/Nels Cline/Yo La Tengo, so I'm kind of a formalist but can get unorthodox. I always feel like I'm just one more note from all of it falling apart, but I keep getting better, and what I lack in honest-to-God chops I seem to make up for with heart/feel. You don't even have to feel the song, but what's the BAND doing? Are they crescendoing? Building tension? Bringing it down? Do they just need a melodic accent (and here's where the singing along could help)? Even if your dynamics are really just an intellectual exercise for you, accenting them helps the song.

We just toured with a much bigger band; a guy from an even BIGGER band (well-regarded alt country guy) is a fan of theirs. This same guy came up to me after our NYC show and was REALLY complimentary about my guitar playing. I felt like if he liked my guitar playing that much then I must've done something right. AND my amp was broken! -E

PS I'm very much a work in progress; I just heard a song of mine from two albums ago, it was often commented on when the album came out and it kills live, but hearing the solos as recorded was a huge letdown; two years later I'm so much better ...

PPS Guitar players might scoff at my chops, and rightfully so, but hopefully your audiences, like mine, are mostly music fans who appreciate tunes and dynamism first and foremost.

[Seraphine]

Since you play Bass... maybe trying to think of this in terms of a melodic Bass over any tune... not just the bottom end.. but what you can do melody wise on Bass for most any tune.... Use what you have and know....?

A Bass can be played all over the neck eh? You would know where such things can be done.. apply to gtr... sort of like what you can do over a drone or ONE pitch background.. you can take that Bass for a ride eh?

If you have any "Bass Solo's" in your pocket... try them on gtr...

[JonR]

Originally Posted by lankybass

You saying all that about it being a language reminds me of Eric Clapton's One More Car, One More Rider. There's a few songs with solos from Eric and whoever is on the breath-controlled keyboard... It just sounds like a conversation between the keys and the guitar each have something to say about the song being sung and I love that feeling. The solos are so well executed and so tailored to that song. It's just incredible to hear.

I would LOVE to get deeper in Jazz but I figured I should at least be a reasonable lead player before I get into all that. I've scratched the surface of what makes jazz jazz with chord shapes and stuff but that's all so far.

Sure, jazz is complicated, but it's the same basic, simple principle for any music. Improvisation begins with embellishment of a melody. That's why you start with the melody!
Learn to play a tune, then start messing around with it: change the timing; leave a note out; replace a note with another one; chop the phrases up; etc etc.

In the language analogy, it's like you're being asked to make a speech on something. Aargh, you might think, I don't know what to say! I don't know anything about the subject!
The melody is like a basic outline of the topic: the main facts you need to know, in one paragraph. You can start by just reading it out. And once you've absorbed what it's saying, you can say it your way: you might have an opinion on what it's saying, so you can bring that in; you can exaggerate certain points that appeal to you. You can deliver the speech in a way that's designed to move your audience, to convince them about your opinion.

None of this requires much scale knowledge. It requires NO theory knowledge!
It does require (obviously) that you know the melody of whatever song you're improvising on - although you may only need a few of the phrases, the ones that sound distinctive; and maybe a few riffs or bits of any solo that already exists.
It requires you to be fairly comfortable technically on your instrument, so you can adapt the lines you pick up, play them in different places on the neck.
But it can start really simple: you can pick a basic riff, and just experiment with that: change its timing, shift its notes around. That's improvisation. Sometimes you just need those baby steps to build confidence. It's really not rocket science.

I know that even as a beginner I had no problem with the concept of improvisation. I was obviously limited technically, in what my fingers could do; but I just copied the kind of things I heard blues, folk and early rock'n'roll players doing. They sounded like they were playing chords, and then messing around off the chord tones.
It worked. It turned out (I understood much later) what I was doing was basically using major pents on major chords and minor pents on minors.
I never knew those terms, I didn't need to. I was just filling in what seemed to be the obvious extra notes between the notes in the chords. (And they were usually notes from the other chords.) What could be easier?
It was decades later that I got more seriously into "jazz", and discovered how complicated people wanted to make it! I read a lot of chord-scale theory (CST), was intrigued and somewhat bemused by it. I never managed to apply it, I just solo'd the way I'd always done. And my jazz tutors often complimented me, while the other students would struggle with their altered scales or whatever.
I trace it to my background learning tunes - either from books or records - because it was always melody (and rhythm) that appealed to me, not fancy chords or "wow" soloing. (I would rather write a song than improvise a solo.) And I learned my fretboard from chord shapes, working it out myself - again only learning later that I'd been using the CAGED system.

Sorry for the autobiography! Just making the point that at root it's very simple. It's when people try and theorize about it, and invent methods and systems (so they can earn money teaching!), that it starts to look complicated. You think you have to learn all that stuff before you can even begin. Wrong

[chervokas]

I think singing along in your head, or thinking melodically in melodic phrases or in call and response phrases is great advice.

I'm principally a pianist -- an instrument on which I'm very much schooled and have excellent technical facility, where I've spent time playing Thelonious Monk transcriptions, Bach exercises, Tatum chord voicings, etc..... I'm a self-taught guitarist with a much more intuitive sense of the fret board than a schooled one -- I don't know my way around the fret board the way I know my way around the keyboard and I don't have anywhere near the speed or nimbleness I have on the piano on the guitar....and guess what? I think of myself as a much better guitar soloist than a piano soloist!

My more limited facility on guitar forces me to think simply and melodically, and to make each phrase or gesture matter. When I'm soloing on guitar I'm not really thing about the song's harmony -- I'm never thinking about the changes, or modes or scales....I'm just kind of humming little melodies in my mind's ear, whereas on the piano I might find myself rifling off fast phrases up and down the keyboard working off the song's changes that in the end wind up sounding like technically proficient doodling with limited musical value.

So the lessons I've learned as a simpler guitarist trying to solo -- think melodically, tell a story with a beginning middle and end, build longer phrases out of call and response deployment of shorter phrases, etc -- I'm actually trying to apply to my piano soloing.

One other thing, which is an idea borrow from literature, Edgar Allan Poe said he always knew the ending of his short stories before he started writing the beginning, that make sense and allows you to build towards a peak....I like to do the same thing with solos. Knowing you're going for X number of bars and the things gonna wind up on Y chord and next is going to come someone else's solo or a vocal or something gives you something to work your way towards and helps you give the solo shape.

I also think theme and variation -- learning to play the melody of the song and building phrases out of variation on that -- as JonR memtion is a good thing to do, it was how all jazz used to be done 100 years ago. But in rock I think that approach isn't always successful because often the melodies are so narrow and repetitive that they don't give you much to work with. Then again, Neil Young can make a great solo out of one or two notes.

[semi-hollowbody]

Originally Posted by Penosity

Sing a melody in your head over these chord changes, then figure out how to play it.
In my experience that's the single best way to begin learning to "solo."

Techniques, modes, etc. be damned. That's all secondary.
It can help you develop further but the starting point is melody.

Of course I could be wrong.

This...then your not concerned with anything other than melody and playing to the song...once you do that, have a basic melody down, you can add some flavor to it, a little bling if you want...

a solo doesnt have to be lightning fast, its not a game to see how many notes can be played...first ask yourself what you feel a solo is supposed to do (changes song to song)...does it mimick what the chours and verses say, or does it expand on it, hit it home...or maybe it goes off into a new direction and takes the song into a different direction

I really enjoy listening to songs, humming along with the melody of the solo, and learning it that way...I CAN NOT LEARN SOLOS FROM TAB...I can get started with it, but I have to be able to hum the solo from memory to learn it on guitar...the more solos you learn, the better you should get at improvising your own...by stealing your favorite licks/techniques

[TheCount0212]

Originally Posted by Jon

You have to have a music vocabulary to be able to improvise - most improvisers aren't playing something totally original when they solo - it's usually variations on a number of things that they normally play - they have a vocabulary of musical phrases which they use to build solos. These phrases can be combined in various ways and adapted to fit different chord structures, tempos, feels etc. Some players have a massive vocabulary, whilst others have a few key licks that they've made their own.

From the sounds of it, you don't have this vocabulary yet - if this is the case, you just need to start learning lots of licks and solos - if you're playing along to SRV or Clapton, steal their licks - learn a complete solo by one of them...then another and another. Listen to solos that you like and pick out key phrases - learn them and start using them - often it's as much the rhythmic phrasing as the actual notes which makes it work......try imagining that you're playing brass riffs in a soul tune....this can really help you to play in distinct phrases rather than just meandering lead lines.

Ultimately these licks that you've learnt will morph into something uniquely yours, especially if each time you learn one, you play around with it, changing things and playing variations on it, experimenting with timing, dynamics etc.

^This.
Improvisation does not exist in a vacuum. Learn phrases that excite you until you own them, in as many positions as possible. Over time these will subconsiously leak into your playing. But you have to put in the time.

[dallasblues]

Take lessons from someone. It can really help you get past your roadblocks.

Some recommended listening... "Let's Dance And Hide Away" by Freddy King (sometimes spelled as Freddie King). It's a great introduction to blues/rock lead guitar. Freddy did something that 99% of today's guitarists leave out. He established melody into his playing. It's not just five minutes or so of mindless wanking. His solos had purpose, meaning, and supported the song. Check it out!

God bless "The Texas Cannonball"!

[lankybass]

so much great advice and encouragement. I really appreciate the help, i'll be reading over all of this and putting to use for sure. Thanks a ton!

[ldizzle]

Originally Posted by JSeth

Nothing wrong with being a guitarist who just ... plays guitar, instead of a "lead" guitarist. It's boring as hell to hear a guy who knows a few licks and plays EVERY ONE OF THEM on every opportunity he gets!

Playing great lead guitar is like being a great conversationalist; what REALLY comes through is what the player has to say, about whatever piece he's playing... what he believes in and truly means within the context of his play (not to get too esoteric about the whole thing!).

I liked most of this. You're going to be great- learn 20 of your favorite songs through and through...build on the solos-take the licks, make them yours- then put them to a basic jam. You'll be bonnamassa in no time.

[6tringer]

I'd like to chime in and add a few bits of info to the excellent advice that has been posted so far. Here are a few things that I learned from the great instructors I was able to study with at the NSGW. Along with applying the concepts and ideas that other posters have listed.....

Learn to solo with just a few notes from a scale. State your musical idea with as few notes as possible....

Learn to let the music breathe. You don't need to play constantly. Just like a conversation, draw a breath every so often...

Play a little riff or melodic line, if it sounds good repeat it! Several times if you feel like it....

Record what you play! (a looper pedal is great for this). Listen back to it. Does it 'say' something? is it cool?

It was mentioned above: Chord Tones. Learn to create lines through a progression following chord tones. This is Matt Smith's 'Secret Of Everything' (Thanks Matt!)

Enjoy your journey. The quest of learning to 'speak through your instrument' is an endless one that can give many hours of enjoyment.

[Sensible Musician]

i see two distinct areas to work on:
having something to say and having facility to say it

here's how i teach students to improvise, starting with the very first lesson. we sing a song, usually the student's choice. then we break it into phrases, then "words" - which in music learning theory speak are melodic patterns - vocabulary. then i make a quickie groove on a looper pedal and choose from two of the words: i do one the student does one; student might repeat me or choose the other; i might repeat the student or choose the other. then we add another word, at which point it becomes very conversational and musical. almost every time they laugh at this point - i guess because they "get" music for the first time - it's like they just woke up in this parallel world...

anyway there's obviously a lot of depth in the subject but that's the literal start of it. it's not the same as running licks, which tends to focus on whole phrases.

i'd say stay completely cold-turkey away from "theory" for a while. i have a lot to say about that but don't take my word for it. the body of research by edwin gordon et al has demonstrated a particular order in which people learn music, with theory coming dead last and optionally. in my opinion, a musician learning what we call music theory as a way of developing musicianship is like a baseball player drawing parabolas - freehand and without math - of baseball trajectories instead of getting his ass out to the batting cages. but you don't need my opinion - there's a preponderance of evidence that AFAIK nobody has bothered to try to refute with similar studies

anyway you learn vocabulary by learning vocabulary. you learn syntax from using the vocabulary with other musicians. guitar teachers, the woodshed, books/videos probably aren't the best resources for this

so the second thing: the facility to sing what you mean through your instrument. the guitar came to be tuned the way it is during the renaissance. this was way before coltrane. it's very hard to know what kind of music was played anywhere at any time before audio recording because the historical record is relatively poor compared with the modern epoch. but it is safe to say that the "language" of our popular music was less developed. as the tonal aspect of music becomes more complex, the tuning of the guitar becomes a bigger problem.

as i advanced as a musician, i got the point where i was spending entirely too much mental bandwidth on fingerboard navigation; no matter how much or how well i shed, i couldn't make the guitar fade to the subconscious. i couldn't just sing through the guitar - i always had to think just a little bit. i switched to fourths tuning - like the top 6 of a 7 string bass [up an octave] E2 A2 D3 G3 C4 F4 - and within a few weeks i would go for long stretches without fingerboard stuff ever crossing my mind.

with standard tuning i had a relatively complicated map that required constant interpretation; but with fourths tuning, it is pure tactile association; i hear a sound in my mind - i audiate a sound - and a the appropriate finger moves as effortlessly as my vocal folds move to make a pitch with my voice. it really is a night-and-day better way to approach the instrument; and i think with your background you would fall right into it with even less transition time than it took me

sorry i don't know where you can study this stuff. i keep meaning to do a method dvd/book or something, but you know how those pet projects go. this is how all the great players learn (not necessarily the tuning, but the process) , but education is literally centuries behind at this point...

i will say that everyone who has ever made the jump made it in the company of good musicians. get in with a crowd of players you like and just hang around as much as you can. i've never experienced an actual music scene (not talking about paramusical society) that didn't have a culture accommodating of up-and-comers. actually that's a pretty reliable way to tell whether it's about the music

[jcj]

Originally Posted by Penosity

Sing a melody in your head over these chord changes, then figure out how to play it.
In my experience that's the single best way to begin learning to "solo."

Techniques, modes, etc. be damned. That's all secondary.
It can help you develop further but the starting point is melody.

Of course I could be wrong.

I stopped reading with this reply...this is exactly how I learned to play.....you (op) have a huge advantage by virtue of having such a solid theoretical base....man......just sing the solo, and make it work!!

I still don't know why what I do works (in theory), I just hear it and work it out....wish I were in your shoes!

[DonW]

Thanks to the op for posting this, lots of great input I'll benefit from. I have the same challenge since my influences are riff heavy rock and I always wanted to be a solid rhythm player and never paid attention to soloing.

Now that rhythm is easier for me I have turned my focus to solos and mimic some by ear and some by tab but it's practice with intense focus that helps me most. May never be at a high level but I've already improved just by the tips here.

[tdawg]

So does Neil Young, but not really .if you get what I mean. Would you want to hear Robin Ford licks over a Neil Young song, most would say not fitting...