This is Customer Service?

[serial]

Originally Posted by rogthefrog

Beggars the question: why not send it back to the store you got it from and get a replacement under standard return policies most stores have?

Because he modified the electronics and thus changed the guitar. No dealer should take it back. Bottom line is that for all of this hand-wringing, no one has mentioned (including the OP) anything substantially wrong with the guitar.

[dspellman]

Originally Posted by sliberty

Not only is something like this expected with any Asian made instrument under $1000,

Hardly. It's actually pretty rare in a lot of brands, and especially those currently coming from Korea. Chinese guitars have been a bit more variable, depending largely on how much attention the US distributor is paying to them.

It's also worth noting that Gibson owns its Epiphone factory and doesn't have anyone else building these guitars for them (far as I know) these days, so it's Gibson's own level of Quality Control that you have to deal with here.

I know what these guitars cost them, and if I told you, you'd be unlikely to believe me. But I can tell you that under ordinary circumstances, the selling price for Asian guitars sold at a retailer like Guitar Center is generally 6-10 times what they cost the manufacturer whose name is on them (and it's worth noting that the non-captive factories are making a profit from what the manufacturer pays, while Gibson's factory "profits" would go directly to Gibson).

[Improbable Joe]

This is complete BS IMO. "Built cheap" isn't the same as "built broken".

I get that if I get a burger from Checkers, I can't expect the same quality as if I get a burger at a Red Robin or a Fudruckers... but that doesn't mean I should accept getting food poisoning, or a burger served on a moldy bun. It doesn't mean that the fries can be raw, or the cola should be flat. There are bare minimum standards, period. This guitar fell far short of them, and if you thing people with less money should settle for nothing because they have to settle for less, you're a snob and not a nice person.

$400 isn't a ton of money by comparison, but it isn't nothing. For the normal person, that's a week's wages give or take a bit.

[ManliusGuitar]

Originally Posted by ked

OK, this is just getting silly. Where did I ever say I wanted a custom shop guitar for $400 dollars? Do you really have to buy a $4000 guitar to get a decent fitting joint made on automated machinery?

That's the thing, a tight joint should be easy to do on any priced guitar, and that your Epi is not, with modern capability, is a shame. i don't care about all the "its cheap, play it, spend more to get more, etc " comments - they are short sighted. Although I may not care as much about an issue like this, the mere fact that it exists is terrible from a consumer standpoint - at any price-point. I feel for you....

[Improbable Joe]

Originally Posted by dspellman

I know what these guitars cost them, and if I told you, you'd be unlikely to believe me. But I can tell you that under ordinary circumstances, the selling price for Asian guitars sold at a retailer like Guitar Center is generally 6-10 times what they cost the manufacturer whose name is on them (and it's worth noting that the non-captive factories are making a profit from what the manufacturer pays, while Gibson's factory "profits" would go directly to Gibson).

I have some idea, because I've had serious conversations with the sales reps of a few major guitar companies about opening my own store a few years ago. I know the sort of profit margins we're talking about.

I've also seen several companies give very reasonable replacements on gear. I know of several occasions where a company would simply say "take it back to the store, grab another guitar/amp/pedal from the display, and have a great day" and then the company and the dealer dealt with the return without inconveniencing the customer at all. After all, the profit margins are high, repair costs are often worth more than the guitar is worth, and why not make the customer happy?

[dspellman]

Originally Posted by guitaristanyc

Hey, don't get me wrong - I'm dirt poor, myself - but poverty levels aside, $400 really is on the cheap end when it comes to guitars today (yes, you can get $100 guitars, but many of them are little more than toys).

If this were the '60's, we'd be talking about the equivalent of a Sears Catalog Harmony guitar here. Decent enough for a cheap guitar, but hardly the pinnacle of quality and playability.

Again, hardly.

It really depends. It depends on the country/factory of origin and it depends on the marketing model used. I sort of promised myself I'd avoid dropping the "A" word here, but there are a whole lot of fairly rabid fans of one Korean-made guitar that's largely marketed outside of regular retail channels. By avoiding brick-and-mortar stores, shipping direct from the importer and by avoiding endorsement deals, big magazine ads and virtually all conventional marketing techniques, $400 buys a LOT of guitar. While we'll just start the casting of camel droppings about if we say that it matches up very well in terms of playability with some far more expensive instruments, that brand's $400 guitar is certainly capable of being played without apology in any professional environment.

At the very least, the brand has built an almost monotonous word-of-mouth reputation from buyers who open the shipping box and later offer that they're stunned at the level of guitar quality that can be purchased with so little money.

That said, I've found that if I were shopping only in retail stores like Guitar Denter, I'd probably tend to agree with you. But I'm not, so I don't <G>.

[ked]

Update on this thread. I was in my shop cleaning up and found a letter of explanation that was mixed in the packing material. According to the letter, this gap is a channel they purposely put in all these guitar bodies. The channel is used for installing a nanomag pickup and wiring when the body is used to built an Ultra instead of a pro. Although I still don't like the gap, there was no gross manufacturing screw up and I owe Epiphone an apology. Epiphone folks, I do apologize for accusing you of sloppy work.

Ken

[jaxn slim]

Originally Posted by ked

Update on this thread. I was in my shop cleaning up and found a letter of explanation that was mixed in the packing material. According to the letter, this gap is a channel they purposely put in all these guitar bodies. The channel is used for installing a nanomag pickup and wiring when the body is used to built an Ultra instead of a pro. Although I still don't like the gap, there was no gross manufacturing screw up and I owe Epiphone an apology. Epiphone folks, I do apologize for accusing you of sloppy work.

Ken

Awesome.

[serial]

Again-if anyone looks at the tenon in the pickup cavity in the photo,it's a tight fit. Basic understanding of how these things are made, the tenon extends into the body and in this case, the neck cavity is routed, removing the upper part of the neck tenon. Looking at your photo, the tenon in the bottom of the pickup cavity is fine.

Glad you got things sorted out-enjoy the guitar.

[blong]

Ked, after reading your explanation and apology, you seem like a reasonable and standup guy.

I have seen some terrible work on some budget guitars and some very high-end guitars. I work on quite a few guitars, and most of the shoddy craftsmanship is coming from only a few makers, and some of it is on guitars in the $2K+ guitars. It's a shame, but it is happening. I'm glad it's not a defect, but I've seen worse, and I didn't even have to look under the hood.

I once bought a MIM Fender that was a great player, until I used the trem. I didn't use the trem in the store b/c it was in the gig bag. When I got it home the trem would dive down but not come back up all the way. It turns out the six trem screw holes were drilled a little too far away from the trem route and the trem was touching the wall so much it was hanging up. I took it to the store, they called Fender, and Fender immediately said, "Give him a new one or refund his money. Then send us the guitar." It turns out that before I shipped it, the Fender rep for our area was in town and he took a look at it and called the factory in Mexico in front of me and the owner in the owner of the store's office. He let them know that "this should not happen" and demanded they make sure it did not happen again. That is customer service. That's why I don't mind import Fenders. PRS SE's are pretty spot on with beautiful work even under the "hood."

I don't care what a guitar costs, it should not have issues like screws missing, tuners misaligned, poorly cut nuts, or finish repairs visible when coming straight out of the factory box. I helped unbox a Gibson Lucille that myself and the guys in the store couldn't wait to see. The guitar had some major issues, including spotty electronics that were shorting out. I do fretwork that the owner of this shop sends me, so I get access that some don't, and I was there when the guitar came out of the box. It was a very poorly exectured guitar for over $2K. It should never have been shipped. I've seen some very inexpensive brands with great quality control. Price and QC should not stray that much, even at $400. I expect excellence in design and execution. I understand for more inexpensive guitars the quality of pups, pots, or hardware may not be quite the same, but shoddy craftsmanship is inexcusable. It seems this was not the case with your guitar, but the principle still applies as far as I'm concerned.

Bob

[marshall2288]

I'm glad this has been solved. While I'm no stickler for details, I do own and have owned a lot of Epi's. More so than not they have been great instruments (not not just "for the price")

[AprioriMark]

Ked, you seem like an exceptionally reasonable fellow, and your expectations are in line with mine. I'm glad that you got some resolution, because I know exactly how it feels to find defects in instruments that just *shouldn't* be there. I've had 3k+ guitars with defects worth than that, and I won't fuel the silly fanboi rage by mentioning company names. It did effect how I felt about the guitars, and I sold them.

That being said, the anti-Asian guitar hate on these boards is ridiculous. While I generally choose USA made guitars and parts, some of the best engineered and built guitars I've seen recently have been Asian-made. Rock that 339; I intend to buy one when I find a Phellam Blue one. It won't say "Gibson" on it, though, because I prefer non-plywood fingerboards. I also own many Gibsons, so calm down, rage kittens!

-Mark

[vortexxxx]

I've actually had a Gibson that was like that. Does Gibson use a long neck tennon in all their guitars or just custom Shop stuff these days?

[stratsnboogies]

Originally Posted by Tone_Terrific

I only looked at one vid but the working conditions seemed at least as good as the old Fender plant as seen in other vids.

Not quite, But that puts China about 60 years behind us. **** them and their junk everything.

[ked]

Thanks for all the replies fellas. I wish I had never started this thread but there has been some interesting reading in it. I hope if anyone from Epiphone read what I wrote that they accept my apology. Before this, I was really wanting to buy an Epiphone Joe Bonamassa Les Paul in the future. That will happen when I get some discretionary funds in hand.

Ken