Timing when playing lead

[cr8z4life]

Understand this is coming from a recreational player that needs to hone his skills and chops......

Its easy to count away the measures when your playing rythmn guitar.......but are there any tricks to keeping track of measures when you are concentrating on lead...... I am sure if you play full time for a living this comes easier, but time waits for no one and sometimes I find myself losing the pocket or losing track of fitting the lead to songs into the amount of measures I have....

Anyone have an easy way to get better at this??

Thanks in advance

[Old Tele man]

...like suspense in a movie, leave some "blank" spots in the sound to add character and contra-pointal suspense...ie: don't play ALL the time!

...just like your mother told you: "...Silence is GOLDEN!"

[spencerbk]

Chances are you're playing a solo over a part of the song that previously had lyrics or a melody on another instrument? Rather than "counting away" think about the song's melody and chances are your solo can relate its length and "shape" to that.

If you get lost, which happens no matter how good you are, thinking about the melody of the song will get you on track faster than thinking about how many measures you must have missed.

[cr8z4life]

Actually we are mostly doing classic rock covers......rather than learn the leads note for note I cover most of it but then there is room for my own thing......but there is obviously a certain amount of measures that covers the lead breaks....so somehow I have to keep track of when it ends......jamming is obviously easier because you can go as long or short as you want.....but when there is a set number of measures in a song.....you have to know exactly where the solo ends.....any way to practice getting better at counting measures or learning how to know exactly the timing?

[lhallam]

Similar to spencerbk's advice, while practicing, pick a tune and learn the song melody then play it for your lead. Next chorus play it again but this time change it a little. Keep morphing it each chorus. Garcia did similar things and Charlie Parker would often fit melodies from other songs into his solos.

Another thing you can do is learn a solo off a record and once again, change it around a little.

These little exercises will help you keep track of where you are by feel.

The best way to improve your timing: metronome or drum machine practice.

[spencerbk]

Originally Posted by cr8z4life

Actually we are mostly doing classic rock covers......rather than learn the leads note for note I cover most of it but then there is room for my own thing......but there is obviously a certain amount of measures that covers the lead breaks....so somehow I have to keep track of when it ends......jamming is obviously easier because you can go as long or short as you want.....but when there is a set number of measures in a song.....you have to know exactly where the solo ends.....any way to practice getting better at counting measures or learning how to know exactly the timing?

Just to clarify my earlier point - I was hoping to address specifically what you're talking about. You certainly do have a finite number of measures, but I'm guaranteeing that 95% of the time, if not all, your number of measures will be the exact same length as, say, two verses or one verse and one chorus or something else that was introduced earlier in the song - so if you keep those melodies in mind you'll be OK.

[Robotechnology]

I find that practicing the same song over and over and eventually you'll FEEL where you are and instinctively know where your part begins and ends.

[jspax7]

Practice 2 measure phrases. Most verses and choruses are comprised of even numbered measures. Leave a little space before starting the next phrase. A 2 measure phrase and a response would be 4 measures, etc...

A 12 bar blues is 6 - 2 measure phrases.

With some practice, you should instinctively feel the 2 measures, and you'll start to play as though you're having a conversation, and people will listen to what you have to say.

[KRosser]

Practice hitting a particular high note, or chord on "one" of every bar, then every two bars, every four bars, eight bars, etc. I do this with my GIT students with this exact issue all the time. Never fails.

[harryjmic]

+1 on what KRosser said. In addition, here is some advice from a bass player friend of mine who has a unbelievable sense of time. He said think of 4 bars as a motif, this idea is taken from classical music and means you make a statement which is generally comprised of a specific length of time; in this case 4 bars. It could be less or more, it all depends.

Another thing to do which is very hard is set a metronome so it clicks at 30 to 40 beats a minute. Then play 1/8, 1/16, and triplets (or any other combination) in this time frame making sure everytime the metronome clicks you are dead on with the time. Use the click as your 1 and jamb all the other notes (evenly spaced) in between.

Finally, listen to other guitar players (musicians). I was listening to Neal Schon of Journey and was amazed at how when he was soloing he broke up every phrase into 4 bars. I don't know if he did this conciously or not but it really works because it follows the pulse of the band. Why people slam this guy is beyond me.

[Mr.Hanky]

Hey Keith;

It really is a matter of practice, but there are some great suggestions here.
Another one is to rely on your bandmates, maybe the drummer can give a little cue. It is easy to get lost during an inspired solo so it would be nice if the other guys could help out, teamwork.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Mr.Hanky

Hey Keith;
maybe the drummer can give a little cue.

teamwork.

Chances are your drummer already is giving the clue to the other members of the band, you are just not paying attention to it. Drummers roll in an out of parts, very rarely do they just go from Verse to Chorus without any fill in between. If you think your bass player is counting endlessly you are kidding yourself, he just knows what to listen for.

[dave s]

You're hitting on one of those intangible aspects of playing guitar which is how much brain power does it take to play leads and how much brain power is leftover for listening and comprehending what's going on around you.

A couple of things I listen for to keep myself ontrack when playing off-the-cuff solos is to listen mostly to our drummer who is very good about defining measures, blocks of 4, 8 or 16 measures by what he does and when. Also, our bass player follows the drummer fairly well.

When I get off track, holding a particular note or playing simple quarter notes until I can feel my way back into to where I'm supposed to be seems to help. Honestly, I don't get off-track many times because I like to structure and rehearse what I do, but it does happen occasionally and looking to the drummer for correct timing seems to help.

dave

[KRosser]

Originally Posted by Luke

Chances are your drummer already is giving the clue to the other members of the band, you are just not paying attention to it. Drummers roll in an out of parts, very rarely do they just go from Verse to Chorus without any fill in between. If you think your bass player is counting endlessly you are kidding yourself, he just knows what to listen for.

I'm sure this is true, and it is very good advice to listen for the kinds of things other musicians play as landmarks to where you're going.

That said, do yourself a favor - DON'T rely on a drummer, or anyone else, to be the 'time' for you. There's no good reason whatsoever why your time can't be as strong as any drummer's, with the right hard work, listening and diligence. And then, if you hook up with a drummer that has a strong and relaxed, confident command of time, and you do as well, then that frees both of you up to play music together. Trust me on this - I don't need a drummer to keep time for me, and I don't need him to give me fills to tell me where 32 bars is, or whatever. In my experience, drummers would rather not have to be referees.

[Mr.Hanky]

Originally Posted by KRosser

I'm sure this is true, and it is very good advice to listen for the kinds of things other musicians play as landmarks to where you're going.

That said, do yourself a favor - DON'T rely on a drummer, or anyone else, to be the 'time' for you. There's no good reason whatsoever why your time can't be as strong as any drummer's, with the right hard work, listening and diligence. And then, if you hook up with a drummer that has a strong and relaxed, confident command of time, and you do as well, then that frees both of you up to play music together. Trust me on this - I don't need a drummer to keep time for me, and I don't need him to give me fills to tell me where 32 bars is, or whatever. In my experience, drummers would rather not have to be referees.

I think that is a bit extreme. They don't need to be referees but the primary responsibity of the drummer is to be the bands timekeeper.
I think it also depends on how you play, cause I still get caught from time to time getting a little too rambunctious and saying "holy sheet, where is 1". Doesn't happen too often but it does happen and I think that can be a great thing because you are walking that line where you are just about to paint yourself into a corner and then squeezing out, and for me, that is what it is all about cause that is when I feel challenged and come up with new and uniques stuff that I couldn't repeat if I had to.