Marshall & Mesa: What's going on...?

[telecopter]

I noticed that both of those brands have gotten cheaper and cheaper inside, PCB mounted tubes, etc. The newer Mesa's can't hold a candle to the old Mark series, IMHO. My local GC has a wall of used Marshall DSL-40's that are total reliability dogs. It's a shame, it really is.

[bluesmain]

I think most of it comes from supply and demand.There are more kids playing entry level rigs than every before. (I give those guys in music stores a ton of credit just to be able to stand the noise and maintain some kind of sanity.) Mid level and high end gear types just don't make up the bulk of new equipment sales.Competition and ecomomy drives the retail price down so the pratical solution is to cut production cost in order to keep profitable volumes.
I see it in Autos too.My company installs glass and the cars and trucks today from my view point are built for replacement rather than long term reliability.

Johnny

[Unburst]

Originally Posted by telecopter

I noticed that both of those brands have gotten cheaper and cheaper inside, PCB mounted tubes, etc. The newer Mesa's can't hold a candle to the old Mark series, IMHO. My local GC has a wall of used Marshall DSL-40's that are total reliability dogs. It's a shame, it really is.

The two best sounding MESA's I've heard were the Tremoverb and the Blue Angel, both relatively modern (compared to the mkI)

[somedude]

Originally Posted by telecopter

I noticed that both of those brands have gotten cheaper and cheaper inside, PCB mounted tubes, etc. The newer Mesa's can't hold a candle to the old Mark series, IMHO. My local GC has a wall of used Marshall DSL-40's that are total reliability dogs. It's a shame, it really is.

I didn't know that PCB mounted tubes was the sole measure of an amps quality.....

I have a Mark III and until last weekend I had a Rectifier. The Rectifier was well built and super clean inside. The Mark III looked like a crazy man wired it up. Both are built solid enough that I could kick them around for years without any problems.

[telecopter]

[quote=screamingdaisy]I didn't know that PCB mounted tubes was the sole measure of an amps quality.....

It isn't, but they never used to do that...it's just an overall cheapening of their product. Heck, I have a cheap Crate Palamino V32 that I love...BUT, I knew what I was getting....just an observation, I'm not knocking PCB's, etc.

[somedude]

[QUOTE=telecopter]

Originally Posted by screamingdaisy

I didn't know that PCB mounted tubes was the sole measure of an amps quality.....

It isn't, but they never used to do that...it's just an overall cheapening of their product. Heck, I have a cheap Crate Palamino V32 that I love...BUT, I knew what I was getting....just an observation, I'm not knocking PCB's, etc.

My MarkIII has PCB mounted preamp tubes......and it was built circa 1987.

Anyway, I can't really fault Mesa for PCB mounted power tubes when companies like VHT (and I believe Bogner) do the same thing. I suspect it has something to do with the increasing complexity of their amps.

I donno....I guess I just don't see it. When I look at a Mesa transformer then go look at another amps transformer.....

[rooster]

It's because the customer base is pinching lots of pennies. How many threads beginning with "best tube amp under $500" do you see here? Lots. In 1968, a Marshall head was $675. Thats over $3k today. Wages have gone up as well, but people who play music don't have the heart to work as hard for their gear. Unfortunately, wages for performing musicians haven't gone up much, other than stadium bands, so maybe that's it as well.

I've repaired enough PCB amps to know that other than Marshall JCM800's, I'll never own one again.

rooster.

[rickc007]

They are also getting more sophisticated

I own a Lonestar Special, and am quite fond of the Road King

I would not want to be the poor guy hand wiring those

[rooster]

Yeah, but who needs so many knobs on the front panel that you can't see how it's set up from across the stage at the gig? I've seen the Road King, and, no thank you. Can't even imagine the use for an amp like that. They do sell pretty well, though, and I guess that's the reason they're built. I play music from the 60s through nowadays, and I can get everything I need from a good boost box, a Heritage H150 w/Bill Lawrence PU's, and my amp.

My opinion, of course.

rooster.

[harryjmic]

I have a Guytron and all the tubes are pc mounted and it also has the dreaded ribbon cable. The guy who built it this way because it was better and made for the servicing of the amp to be far easier, if it should ever break.

Mesa and Marshall are probably doing the same things because it works. These companies have too much invested to build large quantities of amplifiers that breakdown...the warranty repairs would kill them.

At the end of the day a good amp could be made out of duct tape and rubber bands, it's the design which contributes to the reliability of the amp.

[sosomething]

Originally Posted by harryjmic

I have a Guytron and all the tubes are pc mounted and it also has the dreaded ribbon cable. The guy who built it this way because it was better and made for the servicing of the amp to be far easier, if it should ever break.

Mesa and Marshall are probably doing the same things because it works. These companies have too much invested to build large quantities of amplifiers that breakdown...the warranty repairs would kill them.

At the end of the day a good amp could be made out of duct tape and rubber bands, it's the design which contributes to the reliability of the amp.

While I see your point, I'm not so sure I agree with your last statement.

I would say that design obviously is a primary contributor to an amp's reliability and overall quality, but component/materials quality, consistency, and construction methods are in many ways equally important, IMHO.

The best designed amp in the world is not going to last long if the cab is made of balsa wood, the cap values vary all over the map between models, and the tubes are mounted to the same unsupported hunk of credit card-thin PCB that everything else is. The amp would eventually burn itself out or vibrate itself to pieces.

[harryjmic]

Originally Posted by sosomething

While I see your point, I'm not so sure I agree with your last statement.

I would say that design obviously is a primary contributor to an amp's reliability and overall quality, but component/materials quality, consistency, and construction methods are in many ways equally important, IMHO.

The best designed amp in the world is not going to last long if the cab is made of balsa wood, the cap values vary all over the map between models, and the tubes are mounted to the same unsupported hunk of credit card-thin PCB that everything else is. The amp would eventually burn itself out or vibrate itself to pieces.

What I mean by this is a Peavey, with cheap components will be reliable as hell because the guy knows how to build them. The components are important but I think if the amp is designed well within it's operating limits (old Fenders) and not pushed to the extreme (lots of Mesas) they will be far more reliable. It's very common for any Engineering/Manufacturing company to find the cheapest components for a product as long as they adhere to or pass whatever safety/product reliability tests they conduct. Duct tape and rubber bands was just a statement nothing more.