alternate picking vs. gypsy style techniques

[buddastrat]

How many of you guys use a sort've gypsy style where you favor downstrokes (or upstrokes for you freaks!) on string changes? Some of my favorite players do similar approach. I guess I'm not talking about authentic gypsy style, but I see lots of great players who were not from a schooled approach in playing, play very well in their own style with a ton of unique personality. Problem is they seem to be good only at their way and not a wide variety.

I'm not talking about economy picking either, but more of a hybrid of these styles.

I can play my best doing this sort of thing, but it seems limiting in some ways. Sometimes when I'm doing a run, at the last minute I'm trying to decide whether to alt. pick, or do it "my" way which is a combo of alt. picking and economy thing. It's too much thinking when I'm trying to decide and it does interfere with the playing.

For example of a player, many people think Yngwie alt. picks, but he does not. I'm not talking about sweeping arpeggios, but the way he plays his single note lines. He sets his licks up for his own way. I believe he'd have a heck of a time trying to play something that required a strict alternate rhythm thing. But he was self taught with his technique and just does it without thinking about it. I can play his style pretty well as I've practiced that a lot. The speed and articulation is there for me, and I do a pretty decent Yngwie fake.

But that approach doesn't work so well if I go to do a more rhythmic thing like with a swing or many fast runs unless you setup for the technique somewhere on the fretboard and use the "cheats" as I call it.

I'm sort've stuck at that crossroads. I practice lines both ways but ultimately I believe you can't serve two masters. Part of me wants to do it by the book like a Morse or Petrucci, where downstrokes go on the downbeat etc.. it's very rhythmic and machine like, but the other way yields more unique lines and even more speed and precision sometimes. I find much more conviction in my playing when doing that latter. Each approach has pros and cons. I hope to get some discussion on this. There's no right or wrong, it's what makes everyone sound unique.

[countandduke]

I would say, practice both with the understanding that the goal is the music itself. So when you are performing your body should naturally choose the most efficient way to pick without you even thinking about it. I too sometimes play around with the "Gambale" method of picking but never set out to have that as my main picking technique unless doing more than two strings across at a time and then the "sweep" certainly becomes a viable solution but then again, my picking hand tends to choose that on its own. I will say that people like Tiger Woods change their swing very often trying to find the best way possible so its certainly an option to look into doing so. Let us know..........

Chris

[countandduke]

I remember seeing Shawn Lane rip through one of his techniques starting with an upstroke but he said he can only do it when starting with an upstroke. Oddly enough, I have the same problem. If I start a run on the high E string, its almost always an upstroke.......

C

[buddastrat]

Originally Posted by countandduke

I remember seeing Shawn Lane rip through one of his techniques starting with an upstroke but he said he can only do it when starting with an upstroke. Oddly enough, I have the same problem. If I start a run on the high E string, its almost always an upstroke.......

C

Yeah this is the type of thing I'm talking about. It comes down to whether you favor inside or outside picking when going between two strings. Pretty much any lick will set you up for either way, sometimes both. And some players will avoid doing both. I've studied a few guys to death and see very similar patterns.

I favor outside picking and so does Gilbert, YJM etc.. It's just more natural. But, I'm the kinda guy who will make himself play/practice it the more unnatural way so that I work the opposite. Then the problem comes down to when you go to play it in a real situation, at the split second's notice you have to think about that stuff instead of being wired to just do it one way and one way only.

I hope what I'm trying to explain is a little clearer now. Guys like YJM or EJ will not bother practicing the harder way for them, instead they'll find the way to make that lick for them work the way that favore their picking approach. Eric has said in early interviews, he'll play around with many possibilities until he finds a way to execute it convincingly. I notice almost all EJ's fast lines work around one lick that he expanded on. He picks it the same way all the time and just got good at that little move his right hand does and then he changes notes around to give it a fresh sound. He's a monster in that lick, but it's all built around that same sort've pattern that he nailed.


OTOH, I would sit there and make myself practice it the harder ways, going against the grain so to speak, to get better. But I'm thinking this can actually be detrimental in some ways. Because I could spend that time taking that one certain way much further, than to work all the other ways. I hope that doesn't confuse anybody.

[Secret Ingredient]

I think too much emphasis is placed on "versatility". When you think about it, almost all respected artists are defined by what they don't do, as by what they do. Yeah, there are guys like EJ who can toss in bits of a lot of things, but he does it in his own way. Mark Knopfler is not a metal shredder, etc. You don't have to have a million different ways to do each thing. Most of the time, one or two is enough. Check out Scotty Anderson; do you see that guy agonizing over alternate vs economy picking? The guy just does his thing and enjoys it.

Find the way that suits your ear and your mind the best. That way will become your way and that's enough.

Just my $.02

[jackaroo]

I've been practicing a few techniques that have really helped with my playing, and my right hand in particular. First I started practicing on acoustic guitar almost exclusively. Bends, feedback, effects etc not as possible but for a picking workout it's great. Builds hand strength, and tone. Second, I started digging into some bluegrass. Crazy stuff, and very demanding, but not from a harmonic perspective, so I was able to really hear what was happening within the chord structures that I was playing over. Now as I apply those skills to more complex forms,I'm not fighting two battles, one of technique, and the other of thinking what the hell chord is coming next to play over!

My chops have certainly gotten better, not that much faster per se, but more substantial and deliberate. Like as if the notes have more heft. Fluidity is increasing, as is the ability to build tensions within lines-ie chord tone, non-chordtones, chromaticisms and voice leading. One great technique is the rolling banjo sound of crosspicking. A very helpful, and musical way to get your alternate picking chops up to snuff. If the trad stuff sounds hokey, trust me it can be changed to incorporate minor/ dim/ aug tonalities to cool effect.

Granted, I'm not into YJM stuff or capable of it for long passages, but I've always respected his playing. I just can't listen to more than an hour of it. So my old man ears have been transcribing a few Doc Watson songs that use alternate picking, and crosspicking- and if you don't do it that way, things fall apart at full tempo. In the past, I kind of cobbled together my own system for getting speed up, circular, speed, & alternate picking, plus hammer-on-pull-offs. In the end these techniques... They're all just colors.

The Django thing of rapid fire downstrokes for more volume is pretty intense. It has a sound, but it clearly stems from the need to have more volume. My feeling is that alternate picking, coupled with proper note choice can get the "gypsy" point across well enough. But I know a cat who went deep into the stuff and sounds really convincing.

I see you're point...why feel obligated to play within the disciplines of a particular genre, if the idea is to incorporate those new skills into your own style/flavor? For me, It's just fun and a valuable excercise to try to get it "right" but hey, if I need to bend the rules a little, who cares- if it's works it works. Authenticity be damned.

Lately I've been practicing travis picking and fingerstyle, very difficult disciplines. I think being well rounded is cool, but I must say, I really respect folks who can just focus on one thing and just kick ass at that. It's just a little limiting to me. I'm thinking soon all colors will run into each other and I'll just use the right one depending on what the context is. Very helpful for me as a session/commercial musician.

Jeez...did I write this tome? I guess the speed in the cough medicine I took today really did work...my appologies.

Jack

[JamonGrande]

another way to think of it is from the perspective of a bowed instrument player does, certain passages need emphasis on certain notes, regardless of their placement within the meter (on beat, off beat). so if you can hear a difference in tone between the two use the stronger one (could possibly even be your upstroke).

a lot of times, alternate picking is a means to maintaining ones place within the meter (a lot of Bluegrass technique functions off of this). for North Indian classical music, pick attacks (for sitar and surbahar in particular) are represented by words. da is the up stroke on sitar, but is also the stronger motion. ra is the downstroke. But even if the meter (or tal) is completely square (4x4), some phrases start at off beats with a da. In some ways this blurs the obvious meter.

In western terms, think about some players who will play the same lick a couple of times, but the lick is such that it begins on on and off beats. A lot players use the exact same picking pattern each time. But these players also need a great sense of time (and listening to the other players) for the rhythm not to get too screwy.

that's where I'm at with it. I always work at both ways, and am pretty mediocre at both .... rock on

joe