Bad Cat Black Cat/Trem Cat and Matchless C-30. . .info wanted

[Shark Sandwich]

So, I've had a Hot Cat 30 for about four years now and I still really like it. I've been thinking about adding an EL-84 amp to the stable. I really like the Bad Cat/Matchless vibe, sound & construction. I've played a DC-30 and a Trem Cat but never a Black Cat. I know they're both built very well, so that's not really an issue (although I think Bad Cat has a slight edge in this are with heavier switches and input jacks)

I know these are all similar amps, but I'll never get a chance to play them side by side. . .so I need your help. Which do you prefer and why? What has better clean? Better distortion? Better chime? Better medium dirt? let me know what you think . .

[agentcooper2001]

i've had a bad cat black cat 30r, the HOt cat 30r, the Trem Cat and a Matchless SC-30.

My favorite of them all is the Black Cat. I like that it has a tighter bottom end than the Matchless and I also like the cleans more on the black cat. The Matchless overdrive has a really cool sound, but I still give the edge to the Bad Cat.

The Trem Cat sounds alot like the Black Cat, although mine was in a 1x12 combo, so it didn't sound quite as big as the 2x12 black cat. So, one vote for the Black Cat.

ps: i know this is probably the exact opposite of what most think, but I really liked the Black Cat reverb more than the reverb on the Trem Cat. The Black Cat sounds more ambient, where the Trem Cat can get the surfy sound, which i don't like.

[B Vance]

Originally Posted by agentcooper2001

i've had a bad cat black cat 30r, the HOt cat 30r, the Trem Cat and a Matchless SC-30.

My favorite of them all is the Black Cat. I like that it has a tighter bottom end than the Matchless and I also like the cleans more on the black cat. The Matchless overdrive has a really cool sound, but I still give the edge to the Bad Cat.

The Trem Cat sounds alot like the Black Cat, although mine was in a 1x12 combo, so it didn't sound quite as big as the 2x12 black cat. So, one vote for the Black Cat.

ps: i know this is probably the exact opposite of what most think, but I really liked the Black Cat reverb more than the reverb on the Trem Cat. The Black Cat sounds more ambient, where the Trem Cat can get the surfy sound, which i don't like.

I have a 2x12 combo Black Cat. I've never played an amp that gets anywhere close to as much low end bass response. The only knock I have on it is that it weighs 92lbs. Not a fun move in and out of gigs if you know what I mean.

[myles111]

Originally Posted by agentcooper2001

i've had a bad cat black cat 30r, the HOt cat 30r, the Trem Cat and a Matchless SC-30.

My favorite of them all is the Black Cat. I like that it has a tighter bottom end than the Matchless and I also like the cleans more on the black cat. The Matchless overdrive has a really cool sound, but I still give the edge to the Bad Cat.

The Trem Cat sounds alot like the Black Cat, although mine was in a 1x12 combo, so it didn't sound quite as big as the 2x12 black cat. So, one vote for the Black Cat.

ps: i know this is probably the exact opposite of what most think, but I really liked the Black Cat reverb more than the reverb on the Trem Cat. The Black Cat sounds more ambient, where the Trem Cat can get the surfy sound, which i don't like.

If you plug each amp (Black Cat and Matchless) into the same speakers is the difference still there?

Do you have a good GZ34 (as in NOS) in the amps? Current production rectifiers do not come close to exceeding the current capability spec as did the older rectifiers. One of the biggest improvements a lot of folks find is a nice NOS rectifier in these amps.

[hw2nw]

sorry to rain on the parade, but did you try a search? We've covered the Black Cat vs. C-30 thing at least a few times if I remember correctly. There's a great deal of info there, it definitely helped me in the past!

[Bradders]

I've commented a bunch of times on the merits of the black cat and a good old SEARCH will turn this up for you if you're interested in a long'ish read :-)..i think the black cat is sadly seen as "ordinary" and everyone's gettgin overly lathered up about tone cats that are overheating and hot cats with more gain than a man could shake a stick at etc....( great amps btw..don't get me wrong....I honestly reckon the Black Cat is one of the best kept sectrets of the guitar world - it's heavy, it's BIG - true - the head is GIGANTIC but it's packed with qualoity parts, usable features and tones to die for. On additional note - I pulled the 5AR4 and threw in 2 5V4G to soften it up a little - add a little sag - and it worked a treat. I have an old Tele ef86 in the 2nd channel too and it's just a sound to behold. Blending those channels is magic...

All in all - a magical thing.
Bradz.

[Bradders]

hey Shark - here's the original War 'n' Peace I did on the Black Cat - my own humble opinio's of course ...
The flexibility is what this guy is all about, hi and low inputs, 12AX7 and ef86 "sides" ( not channels as such but you know what i mean) detfeatable master volume which makes an enourmous difference to the feel and tone of the thing but you have to be either brave or have a forgivving sound man in a big room to wind this up without the master volume - it's loud! ABYing the channels is cool, couple of 120V outlets on teh back, speaker phase switch etc.etc. I''ve played beefy amps before but this is BIG! I read on a post that someone said that Bad Cats were "thin" sounding, wow, I couldn't disagree more from my experience owning a Cub II, extensive time on a Hot Cat, Trem and now owning a Black Cat.....they're nothing like "thin" in my ears. Anyway...
The amp on the clean side - has to be pushed pretty hard to break up, I am used to amps giving up the good sooner - but the master helps a lot there. We recorded the amp a couple of weeks ago and I used it exclusively with the master out of the way - in a separate room etc.....and the thing is blissful. It'll do a good AC-30 chime and grind with the chnl master around 1am and onwards. The eq ( bass and treble) are extremely sensitive and make a huge differnce. This is a really sweet channel that is clean to jangly - especially with the 2*5V4G rectifiers in the 2 recto slots as the 5AR4 sounded "hard" to me. ( I also have an old Clubman that I love, #1 gig grab and go amp and it has this fantastic sag and bloom to it that I tried to emulate somewhatin the Black Cat).
On the ef86 side - there's a telefunken tube in there that's just plain "thick!" - HUGE without the master, in the recording scenario, and with the master engaged it's very cool with the preset eq control a la *C-30.....not a bad sound in there, but I have to admit I'd prefer the separate bass/treble controls there - but a very minor gripe. This channel has a surprising amount of gain on tap - classic rock/grind/crunch etc is a breeze -nothing speed/death/scooped metal about it but a big nasty fat rock "girth" if you get my drfit.
Then add the fact that you can A_B_Y the inputs and have some clean/chime/grind of the ax7 side to the "girth" and meat of the ef86 side and then you're in another ballpark all together.....the channels work great along side each other, you can clearly hear the nuances of both coming through.

Al in all I can't say enough about the amp - pluggign in for the first time was a wierd experience for me. It was actually a "downer," of sorts, and what I mean is that there are so many possibilities that I found myself not satisfied with any one and wanting others all the time, which actually helped as it made me explore, not something I'm used to doing with an amp.....I usually plug in, find that spot and go from there.....this amp made me sit and think and really commit ( commit to an amp - wow, this is dangerous territory, I hope the wife's not reading!?!?! ) to trying to work with is, explore it and find my place with it - and I'm not there. The studio experience was good, it forced me to do this. I have at least 4-5 spots on the amp now that I know are just plain great, for me and my band/music, and there's more........you see the issue.....a nice problem to have.

I can't recommend this amp strongly enough. If you want something that will cover a lot of ground, this amp will do it - to my ears of course - but it's worth every penny.

My own 2c tips.....
1. get the head and cab as the combo's a back-breaker......unless the roadcrew carries it for you.
2. Get the matching 2*12 - it DOES make a difference.....your fave speakers may not do what you think they will with a Bad Cat - (Matchless!)
3. Play with the recifier tubes -it makes a big difference but be carefull to understand when you need 2 versus 1 lest you damage the amp. ( there's a great link on the KCA site in FAQ that gives you the table of saggy-ness on recto tubes -those guys are great!)
4. BE PATIENT with it - it will do what you want - but it may take time. It's not a plug and go amp.
5. ENJOY..............

DISCLAIMER _ obviously, these are my own feelings, if someone disagrees, cool, .......

Anyway hw2nw, hope this makes sense to you and helps in your quest.......I thought long and hard about the investment in the Bad Cat, it wassa toss up between the Black and Hot - and I'm glad I went withthe Black Cat......it's a serious piece of gear.

[drwatson63]

Hey Shark,
I've got a Trem Cat in Exceelent Plus condition for sale for $2300.
PM me if your interested and we'll toggle over the price a bit

Thanks