not diatonic harmony but blues based harmony discussion

[Clifford-D]

Ok this topic has been floating around the thread lately

Take the tune 'Back in Black'
E5 D5 A5

This song is not based on diatonic harmony

It's based on Blues harmony theories

please tell me all you know about blues based harmony.

And how it's used in different styles of music.

How it differs from diatonic thinking

And I will be happy :NUTS

[ap1]

How is it not based on diatonic harmony?? I IV V in A. What am I missing?

[gennation]

There was someone on the site here who had some great concepts on the "diatonic" side of Pentatonic based songs.

It wasn't too long ago I'll see if I can find it.

[Clifford-D]

Originally Posted by ap1

How is it not based on diatonic harmony?? I IV V in A. What am I missing?

First of all

You play E min pentatonic over .

How do you explain the G note in the scale?

In fact, it sounds awkward to use G#

The G note doesn't support an E chord

and the song does not go V to I ( E to A )

so the G is not altered tension.

So my guess the E5 power chord

can be expanded to the full chord E minor.

Emin is not a V chord.

Are you getting what I'm saying.

Just try playing A major scales against the song.

yuk.

But I'm also wanting more discussion on it



Here are some links to catch up.

What's your cool way to use Pentatonic scales ( 1 2 3) pg 2 & beyond

Why can I play a minor pentatonic scale in a major key progression tune? ( 1 2 3 4)

[Clifford-D]

Originally Posted by gennation

There was someone on the site here who had some great concepts on the "diatonic" side of Pentatonic based songs.

It wasn't too long ago I'll see if I can find it.

Brad347 talked of his Beatles thesis

That was the subject I'm talking about. Kimock got involved.

Facinating stuff, I can't find it.

Do things drop off this thread?

[gennation]

Originally Posted by tonefingers

Brad347 talked of his Beatles thesis

That was the subject I'm talking about. Kimock got involved.

Facinating stuff, I can't find it.

Do things drop off this thread?

Maybe it was Brad, I was thinking someone else. DO you have the link to Brads ideas? I'll see if that rings a bell.

[gennation]

Yes it was Brad in this thread...

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/sho...d.php?t=211578

Cool thoughts. I have to read through Kimock post at the end of that thread too.

[KRosser]

Originally Posted by ap1

How is it not based on diatonic harmony?? I IV V in A. What am I missing?

It's not in the key of A because A is not the point of resolution - E is.

So it's I - bVII - IV in the key of E. You can harmonically justify the bVII chord one of two ways - as the "IV of IV" (a secondary plagal cadence), or as the natural VII chord in the key of Em (modal interchange).

Either way works.

[ap1]

Originally Posted by KRosser

It's not in the key of A because A is not the point of resolution - E is.

Understood. I guess it would have helped for me to remember how the tune actually goes...

Originally Posted by KRosser

So it's I - bVII - IV in the key of E. You can harmonically justify the bVII chord one of two ways - as the "IV of IV" (a secondary plagal cadence), or as the natural VII chord in the key of Em (modal interchange).

Either way works.

Now that I think that I do remember the tune, I guess the latter seems more appropriate, given the context. The D goes by too quickly to be heard as a IV/IV, doesn't it? Maybe not, though.

[KRosser]

Originally Posted by ap1

Now that I think that I do remember the tune, I guess the latter seems more appropriate, given the context. The D goes by too quickly to be heard as a IV/IV, doesn't it? Maybe not, though.

Like I said - I can 'hear' it either way.

[willyboy]

The way I look at this tune overall, is it is essentially E minor with modal interchange and an E minor pentatonic melody (if I am remembering this correctly).

As far as the opening verse progression, I personally don't hear the Dmaj as anything but a diatonic chord to the E minor tonality. It is the Amaj triad (which is the IV-I cadence chord back to Emin) which is not diatonic to the Natural Minor/Aeolian mode (E-7, F#-7b5, Gmaj7, A-7, B-7, Cmaj7, D7). The Amaj triad though, is in fact diatonic if you think of this progression as E Dorian (E-7, F#-7, Gmaj7, A7, B-7, C#-7b5, Dmaj7) - play the E dorian scale over this progression, it totally nails the sound of all the chords in the verse progression - no avoid notes. It just so happens that there is no C# in the vocal melody or in any of the guitar solo, if I remember this correctly, to force you to hear it this way (pop tunes are often harmonically ambiguous and in this case the natural 6 would be too hip/jazzy for an AC/DC type tune based on blues and minor key harmony), but for me the inclusion of an Amajor triad simply implies the Dorian tonality. To me, this is the simplest and tidiest way to justify the harmony and the pool of inside diatonic notes which work over this progression.

:BEER

[Clifford-D]

Originally Posted by willyboy

The way I look at this tune overall, is it is essentially E minor with modal interchange and an E minor pentatonic melody (if I am remembering this correctly).

As far as the opening verse progression, I personally don't hear the Dmaj as anything but a diatonic chord to the E minor tonality. It is the Amaj triad (which is the IV-I cadence chord back to Emin) which is not diatonic to the Natural Minor/Aeolian mode (E-7, F#-7b5, Gmaj7, A-7, B-7, Cmaj7, D7). The Amaj triad though, is in fact diatonic if you think of this progression as E Dorian (E-7, F#-7, Gmaj7, A7, B-7, C#-7b5, Dmaj7) - play the E dorian scale over this progression, it totally nails the sound of all the chords in the verse progression - no avoid notes. It just so happens that there is no C# in the vocal melody or in any of the guitar solo, if I remember this correctly, to force you to hear it this way (pop tunes are often harmonically ambiguous and in this case the natural 6 would be too hip/jazzy for an AC/DC type tune based on blues and minor key harmony), but for me the inclusion of an Amajor triad simply implies the Dorian tonality. To me, this is the simplest and tidiest way to justify the harmony and the pool of inside diatonic notes which work over this progression.

:BEER

All good except it's not diatonic. You're bendind the rules to fit into a diatonic scheme.

Check out Kkrosser a few posts earlier. This guy is the authority.

[Clifford-D]

Originally Posted by KRosser

It's not in the key of A because A is not the point of resolution - E is.

So it's I - bVII - IV in the key of E. You can harmonically justify the bVII chord one of two ways - as the "IV of IV" (a secondary plagal cadence), or as the natural VII chord in the key of Em (modal interchange).

Either way works.

Ken, can you go into more detail, or am I making too much out of a simple thing.
What would be soloing choices if you didn't want to use Emin pent.

in/out ideas industrial or exotic.

Thanks TF

ps
Saw you playing with Nels Cline on youtube.
You guys are totally wacked. I Love it.
Been following Nels for a while
and you are part of that. Is that cool or what.
love this net thing
Any more?

[buddastrat]

[quote=tonefingers;2256750]First of all

You play E min pentatonic over .

How do you explain the G note in the scale?

In fact, it sounds awkward to use G#

The G note doesn't support an E chord

and the song does not go V to I ( E to A )

so the G is not altered tension.

So my guess the E5 power chord

can be expanded to the full chord E minor.

Emin is not a V chord.

Are you getting what I'm saying.

Just try playing A major scales against the song.

yuk.

But I'm also wanting more discussion on it




If you listen closely, you can hear the major 3rd in there once in awhile on the E. Not just an E5. Besides using the major 3rd (G#), the min 3rd works against a major chord for the bluesy sound as we all know. It's a very easy song to play to. Lots of things can work. including E mixolydian (key of A) and E dorian. It all comes down to the thirds and both work. You just have to play with attitude and conviction in the phrasing.

It's just rock n' roll, don't take the fun out of it!

[KRosser]

Originally Posted by tonefingers

Ken, can you go into more detail, or am I making too much out of a simple thing.
What would be soloing choices if you didn't want to use Emin pent.

in/out ideas industrial or exotic.

Dude, it's an AC/DC tune, how exotic you gonna get?

Blues scale licks basically work fine, that other blues trick where you go back & forth between major & minor pentatonic works if you phrase it right...

If you wanna get into exotics, sky's the limit because you're dealing with dissonance anyway, right? The degree of how much dissonance is just a matter of personal taste/courage. Half/Whole Diminished can sometimes be nice over something like that in spurts....

ps
Saw you playing with Nels Cline on youtube.
You guys are totally wacked. I Love it.

The was a big discussion in the Sound Hound Lounge about YouTube (w/Adam Rogers in the title). This directly applies to that. This gig was many years ago, it was a tiny sort of arty, 'alternative' bar in Silverlake CA that maybe held 30 people at most, and Nels and I were both called by the bass player to do this with the understanding that we would just hit the stage and improvise all night. I think I got a couple half-price Coronas out of it.

I had absolutely no idea this was being filmed. And at the time Nels was still more or less an only locally know guy.

Now, Nels is getting to be very well know, and this tape surfaces and lots of people are watching it because they're looking for Nels stuff. It horrifies me to think that people are forming opinions about my playing based on this.

But, you can't take it back, right?

I'm glad you like it, and I don't regret doing it at all, but this clip doesn't make much sense to me out of context.

Been following Nels for a while
and you are part of that. Is that cool or what.
love this net thing
Any more?

Nels and I have been friends since about '86 and we've played a lot together, though I hardly see him anymore because he's so busy with Wilco, etc. But we still run into each other at a guitar store every now and then. He's a good guy. His recent success is well-deserved and a long time coming.

We did a CD together that this same bass player 'organized', basically along the same lines, that also features another mutual guitarist friend named Woody Aplanalp who now plays with Trilok Gurtu. It's under the band name Solo Career and I think it's called "Season Finale". He sent me one but I've never listened to it. It's more of the same kinda loose, 'out' stuff you hear above but better recorded and better playing from what I remember. I think there may be one or two cuts from the same gig above, actually. The bass player's a really sweet guy, though - he actually mails me an auditing statement and royalty check for about $2.50 every year from those CD sales!

If you surf through Nels' site, there's a clip he posted of us playing duo up there. Give that a listen, if ya want, and then I'll tell you the story behind it...