"I hate POD's" Here's why modelers suck...

[Scott Peterson]

.....or don't suck.


In the Amps and Cabs Paul owns a place where he puts on live bands. Supplies a boutique level back line (Matchless amps among others) and has made a few threads pointing out that POD's suck and every player that uses one, in his experience, sounds like crap. His conclusion is that the fault lies in the POD.

I answered him many times, but felt that this post copied below makes my point the best. It struck me that with so many folks, especially here on this board (ahem!) hating on POD's because, well, just because(!) that'd it be a good topic. So here we are and here we go (note that this was directed to Paul, but the feelings and opinions expressed are universal to the topic):

The folks that hate this gear or that gear are blaming the gear. Well, I've heard and been in tons of bands with killer players that don't have a frecking clue about how to get a good sound. Mesa is often the worst "offender" I've personally come across because it is easy to dial in tones that suck with the controls that they offer.

(NOTE: This here's my moral!) That doesn't mean Mesa amps suck.

It means that guys haven't spent the time or effort to work on their sound as much as their chops. And it is NOT Mesa, or Line 6's fault.

Guys approach POD's like they are 'amps' and dial in sounds. Here's a newsflash - they are NOT amps. They are entire rigs. A preset is a full blown from the pedals to the amp to the cab to the speakers to the mic to the room. It's the rig and the space you are in.

Now stop for a second and think about how much effort you've put into your room, sound system and backline you supply. It's a huge thing. And that's before you put in the pedals, cables and get into the fine tuning of speakers, effects and settings, etc..

Now look at the POD - It's the whole shooting match from the first pedal (or virtual pedal) to the sound in the room. It's far more complicated than 'dialing it in like an amp' because when you dial in an amp, it's only one part of the puzzle.

It's taken me years of working, recording and playing out with POD's before I truly feel I've GOT something really good. And I am a very serious 'tone' guy that has ears, focuses on the band sound/mix and how I fit into the given context and the needs of the song.

You have seen/heard hundreds of players that don't have ears, that don't have chops, and/or don't have the sound. That's your point. My point is that it is not the tools they use. Modeler's are the easiest for folks to rip on because they are - by FAR - the hardest to dial in given the complexity of what you trying to do. Every preset is a full blown rig.

I hope that illustrates a bit more clearly what I am saying. I don't need/want/care to change your opinion. I'd just like for your perspective to change. It isn't modelers, or amps, or pedals, or guitars. It isn't the gear. It IS operator laziness, ignorance and/or error.

When a baby is in the crib and happens to sneeze when the wind blows the curtains; the baby might assume that the curtains moving caused their sneeze. Ahh, but we know that to not be the case because we have a much deeper understanding and perspective than the child. Does that illustrate it better?

[drolling]

And there are also some bone-simple modelers out there that routinely get dissed by players who refuse to work with them.

That little purple JimiHendrix pedal from DigiTech, for example; It's got the whole shootin' match, from 'virtual' floor pedals (wah, fuzz, 'vibe, etc..) to amp sims (Marshall, Fender) thru' mic'd cab models & studio plate reverb in a compact package w/very few adjustable parameters.

Plug that sucker into your prized '63 Vibroverb and you'll get some of the gawd-awfullest sounds you've ever heard - guaranteed!

Try to *fix* it w/a few booteek pedals (EQs, boosters, etc.) and it'll just get worse, trust me.

But run that baby into a PA, sampler or DAW, and you'll have a credible emulation of several of Jimi's classic rigs - both live & in the studio! Takes all of 30 seconds to set up & it sounds good every time..

The M-Audio BlackBox's another one (and thanks again for hipping me to it, Scott!). A streamlined unit that bundles a drummachine w/a bunch of wacky filters & a few dozen amp simulations - How does it sound thru the lead channel of your vintage Marshall stack?

Really, really, really crappy.. Unbelieveably bad, actually.

I've got mine mounted on a mic stand, hooked up to a cheap Alesis floor controller & plugged straight into my laptop - a compact, powerful system that I carry onto the plane, a travel guitar in my other hand.

As long as I don't try to force these tools do jobs they weren't designed for, I'll always be OK..

[danel59]

I agree completely with Scott. I have been through all 3 versions of the Pod 1,2,XT and still have the XT as well as GT-8. It has only been recently that I have starting working closely with it that I have been getting sounds that work for me and as Scott says work is the operative word. I play in a number of cover bands and to be honest when I tried nailing the recorded tone. It worked but not really worked for me. People could say it sounded spot on but yes there was something missing. I have since started working more with the XT and have worked on getting tones that work and sound good to me. I can fit these into the songs I am playing and it still works and alot of people don't hear the difference other they see that the player seems to be more into it, due to the fact that said player is more comfortable playing in his sound and feel. I had a coworker who has good ears come up behind me as I was tweaking my XT through a keyboard amp using a Dumble clean patch and he was amazed because he thought I was playing through my Fuchs ODS.

I still think the whole modelling issue is in its infancy and through time will improve. I think we are at the point much like the keyboard players were back in the 80's with all of the new digital keyboards coming out. At first they weren't accepted generally except for those that spent the time to understand the layout and worked at getting sounds that "worked" for them.

Anyways that's my two cents worth

Dan

[CocoTone]

This should be interesting....

On a more serious note, I tried a Pod, and also the Vox Valvtronix. The Vox blows the Pod away in both simplicity to use, as well as tone. But the biggest thing for me , was the feel of the Vox. It reacted more like a real amp, plus you could use it for reahearsals, if the room wasn't too big.
I had to futz around too much with he Pod, which makes you pissed off, which is not conducive to making good vibes for good tunes. Dig??

BUT,,,,YMMV

CT.

[dosmun]

I don't own any modelers (besides a Pandora PX-4 which is just a practice tool for me but does work great for that.) but I have heard guys using them that sounded awesome. It is like any piece of gear. You have to learn how to use it and know how to achieve good tone. I would bet that a lot of players that bitch about modelers probably have a hard time dialing in a good tone with just about anything.

[derek_32999]

I bought a V-amp 2 from a guy that was using it into a fender hotrod deville (it sounded terrible through my HRDeville)

I used it with a crappy old SS peavey using the power amp input on the amp that bypasses all of the tone controls/tonestack. Sounded just like the amps it was modeling. The response to picking/pedals etc wasnt amp like, but it is what it is. MY brother uses that setup now to practice and it works excellent.

[59Vampire]

apparently iwas unable to convey my thoughts so if i pissedoff anyone i aapologize

[guitarpkr67]

Originally Posted by 59Vampire

you are neglecting the fact that not everyone who plays the guitar has 13 thousdand posts here, gigs, or gives a rats ass about your
OPINION. I myself do gig and jam. gig once a month, jam 4-6 x a month. practice: everyday. I have a wife (hopefully for not much longer ) and 2 kids. hmmm... how does one pratice whiule working 75 hours a week and having a family? headphones of course. And what do i use a s a sopurce? my pod. instead of putting something down, why nor explain that while it does not work for YOU it might work for others.

Did you even read the post? I haven't seen anyone put down the pod in this thread.

[andybaylor]

The problem with ALL modelers is latency.
9 milliseconds for a POD to make sound?
Thats a lotta time...Tracks recorded feel sloppy, and lack punch, even if you play ahead of the beat to compensate.

For my money, I'll stick with an "old school" Tech 21 Trademark 10 (BTW- works GREAT for super-low volume, everybody else is asleep jamming) or Sans Amp for a sound engine. Sounds and FEELS like an amp.

I have seen the beast...and it's number is 667 -Andy Baylor

[PatchCord]

I have found that those that have failed in "Tweaking 101" say modeling sucks

[Scott Peterson]

Originally Posted by andyland6

The problem with ALL modelers is latency.
9 milliseconds for a POD to make sound?
Thats a lotta time...Tracks recorded feel sloppy, and lack punch, even if you play ahead of the beat to compensate.

For my money, I'll stick with an "old school" Tech 21 Trademark 10 (BTW- works GREAT for super-low volume, everybody else is asleep jamming) or Sans Amp for a sound engine. Sounds and FEELS like an amp.

I have seen the beast...and it's number is 667 -Andy Baylor

POD XT's latency is 2ms.

[chemical69]

as a usability professional in the software field, I disagree on one point. It IS the fault of the manufacturer. Too often, products are made with little thought as to how the user interface should be designed. Controls are not intuitive and they do not make it straightforward for a user to achieve his/her goals. We, as users, often blame ourselves for our ineptitude, letting the manufacturer 'get away' with sub-par user interface standards. Even instruction manuals (which nobody reads) should reflect a user-centered design approach.

hope this makes sense and I don't sound like a sanctimonious a$$.

[Anywho]

I would also like to express my support for my particular favorite brand of electronics and clearly illustrate that I don't need/want/care for your useless opinion or perspective. I would also like to remind everyone that they are ignorant, lazy, and incompetent.
Thank you.

[CocoTone]

Originally Posted by Anywho

I would also like to express my support for my particular favorite brand of electronics and clearly illustrate that I don't need/want/care for your useless opinion or perspective. I would also like to remind everyone that they are ignorant, lazy, and incompetent.
Thank you.

Hey!!! You can't say stuff like that with only 18 posts!!!!



:NUTS

CT.

[Scott Peterson]

Originally Posted by CocoTone

Hey!!! You can't say stuff like that with only 18 posts!!!!



:NUTS

CT.

Yes he can, he's being satirical.

The knee-jerk of most cats is, "Modeling sucks." There's no debate, no arguing, no amount of clips or demonstrations to show them it doesn't. My point is that perhaps backing up from the knee-jerk reaction would point to the 'WHY' of that; and he's making light of all of it.

That's fine man.

I don't want/need to covert anyone. It'd be nice if they stepped back and thought about it, but hey, it's cool.