Pedals: Why so much boost above unity gain?

[solo-act]

Originally Posted by strumminsix

I still don't get it

Sorry...I perform with backing tracks (stuff I perform/record myself). The amp cabinet is miced and sits in the mix with the backing tracks. I didn't think any of that mattered when it came to talking about pedal gain so I didn't mention it.

[John Phillips]

Actually the more I think about it, I think this may be the reason.

No matter how good-sounding the other stuff seems through the PA, it's still essentially recorded music and so will have much less dynamic range than a live band. This will make getting the guitar levels absolutely right much more critical, since the guitar will still have the full dynamics, and when you turn up the guitar or add distortion it will then be much more of a change relative to the backing tracks and will seem far too loud.

With a live band, you need that ability to boost the level substantially to cut above the varying dynamics of everything else (especially since distorted sounds are inherently compressed, so you can't add volume by playing harder), but what you have is more of a recording studio context, where small level changes are much more noticeable because they're set against a more consistent background, and it's normal to compress most sources. Have you tried running (studio-quality, not a pedal) compression after the amp?

Sorry if I'm wildly wrong again . This is a bit of a puzzle and I'm genuinely curious...

[gregory49]

another assumption i have made would be that the pots get noisier as they get turned up .....

[StompBoxBlues]

Originally Posted by John Phillips

Actually the more I think about it, I think this may be the reason.

No matter how good-sounding the other stuff seems through the PA, it's still essentially recorded music and so will have much less dynamic range than a live band. This will make getting the guitar levels absolutely right much more critical, since the guitar will still have the full dynamics, and when you turn up the guitar or add distortion it will then be much more of a change relative to the backing tracks and will seem far too loud.

With a live band, you need that ability to boost the level substantially to cut above the varying dynamics of everything else (especially since distorted sounds are inherently compressed, so you can't add volume by playing harder), but what you have is more of a recording studio context, where small level changes are much more noticeable because they're set against a more consistent background, and it's normal to compress most sources. Have you tried running (studio-quality, not a pedal) compression after the amp?

Sorry if I'm wildly wrong again . This is a bit of a puzzle and I'm genuinely curious...

I had a really nice, thought out post referring to what you earlier referred to...and they closed TGP on me for maintenance (wish it could have saved it but..)

Anyway, I like what you wrote, but also was thinking another aspect of this is what happens at lower (relatively) and higher volumes.

I mean, two Od's, you play at bedroom or slightly above volumes, and set both OD's to what sounds to you like unity, so clean, OD1 and OD2 as you switch back and forth all sound like they are at the same volume. The band starts playing, and you set your clean up accordingly, then on a solo turn on OD1...and are way under unity (again, may be exactly what you talked about, or a combination of that and that it is in my experience MUCH harder to hear differences in levels at lower volumes), turn it off, turn on OD2...MUCH higher than the clean. Turn them both on, could go either way depending on the voicings I think.

Main thing, there are probably many things going on here, the band stealing frequencies, masking, compression, and not least that volume thing.

I believe I recall going the other way too...setting some OD's for unity while at higher band volumes, then later on at home with same settings, hearing differences in apparent volume at lower overall vol.

[solo-act]

Originally Posted by John Phillips

...what you have is more of a recording studio context, where small level changes are much more noticeable because they're set against a more consistent background, and it's normal to compress most sources. Have you tried running (studio-quality, not a pedal) compression after the amp?

That's an accurate assessment. The dynamics aren't as radical as live stage instrument dynamics and the acoustic & electric through the PA have to fit in the more limited dynamics of the recorded instruments. I have compression in the Gforce I use, but I don't squash it much. No studio quality compression. If the rig & playing are done right, pedal compression works really well.

However, even in the larger dynamics of live stage volume, unless you're slamming an amp already at the edge of compression or pushing one pedal with another, having pedals way above unity puts your 'no pedal' tone way low in volume unless you're running a clean pedal way above unity.
The only application that makes sense for what I do is hitting a dirt pedal really hard with a another pedal. The dirt pedal sits a few DB above unity at a certain compression level & the pedal in front of it is set way over unity & slams it into major overdrive. It doesn't get much louder, just a lot more intense. I don't use any of mine that way. Everything is set just above unity and they're used alone or cascading and pushing each other. Boost and 'clean boost' come from guitar and compressor pedal. So far that's working for what I need to do, but there's a lot of playing around that can be done. I might try running one pedal hot as clean only and using the dirt pedals to hit the amp input harder like was suggested earlier. But I'll be running this weekend's gigs with the current config until I get around to that.

Thanks for the insights gentlemen, definitely useful info.

[tot_Ou_tard]

Originally Posted by waxnsteel

One thing I have noticed in pedals, when looking for unity, is that what I hear as unity tends to change as I dial other parameters, so I don't get too hung up on where the right level is by eyballing it. I'd rather earball it.(New word of the day.)

Should be: earlobe it.

[Occam]

I run into the problem where a lot of pedals don't have enough volume boost for me. You're running into a clean amp. When running into a cranked dirty amp unity gain takes a lot more volume for some reason I can't explain and if you really want it to boost for a lead (or a more saturated rhythm sound in my case) then you need quite a bit of boost.

[Blues Lyne]

Originally Posted by solo-act

However, even in the larger dynamics of live stage volume, unless you're slamming an amp already at the edge of compression or pushing one pedal with another, having pedals way above unity puts your 'no pedal' tone way low in volume unless you're running a clean pedal way above unity.
The only application that makes sense for what I do is hitting a dirt pedal really hard with a another pedal. The dirt pedal sits a few DB above unity at a certain compression level & the pedal in front of it is set way over unity & slams it into major overdrive. It doesn't get much louder, just a lot more intense.

There ya go. That's exactly why they are made that way. The original idea behind an overdrive pedal was to slam an amp that was already workin' hard into extra dirt, with the pedal adding a bit of dirt itself to enhance things. If a pedal maker makes a pedal capable of a large volume boost, it works to slam an amp or another pedal, and you can also turn it down if you don't need the volume and use it at unity. If they make one with little output, it only works for those wanting unity gain in to a clean amp.

It can also depend on where you have the distortion or gain knob set. Some pedals have unity at 9:00 with the gain way up, but at 3:00 with it back down to it's lower range. It the pedal were designed with less output when the gain was turned up, you couldn't get unity with the gain backed down.

There are pedals that excell at adding dirt to a clean amp at unity volume and those that excell at slammin' a tube amp. The trick is finding the right tool for the right job.