A real Trainwreck/Ken Fischer thread

[Jessie 160]

Originally Posted by mtlin

The color? Really?

If I remember correctly. I think Ken said it had something to do with what was used to make the color and how it somehow reacted with the wire.

[sfarnell]

Originally Posted by quinnamps

It means that Ken had an agreement with the folks who made his transformers that would not make the very same transformers for anyone else. So there you go...




Well one could argue that TR knew exactly what they wanted in a transformer and they got exactly that. One could argue that it was all a "mix up" on the trafo companies part. A circuit is mroe than JUST the trannies but if your attempting to clone something closely it sure helps to have either the same iron or a well reversed clone....




I thought you understood what proprietary meant?
The patent system is so screwed you could damn near patent the pencil.



They bought them but it very doubtful they said "hey just send us some GOOD ones"... Don't know if the coaxed the guy or he was just happy to make a sale.



Sure there are but can't the guy like what he likes or does he need to like what you like?
Maybe even if it sounded good he felt a little defensive seeing as a guy with 30 years engineering somehow got Ken tranny design instead of using his 30 years to simply design his own. Not saying Bill isn't what you say he is just saying how I might see it if I were Ken. He really had zero reason to extol the virtues of the two rock tone.....I feel like I am wasting my fingers typing instead of playing....


Are we talking control panel layout or circuit layout?



I'm from Santa Rose but am no longer there and do not own a TR or a TW...

One question for all you amp builders out there: Do you design and make your own trannies? Or, if you find one that you like do you try and find it and buy it?

It seems to me that there is a little jealousy and professional resentment going on here. It seems to me that in the last several years other builders have attempted to clone TRs more so than the other way around. Like I've said, I know the guys at TR pretty well and have never heard them speak badly about other builders including their competition. I wish it was so the other way around.

You guys win. The guys at TR are thieves and rip-off artists and all other builders build original amps with original circuit designs. I've got to go. Based on Mr. Fischer's comments and all the support here for them I'm in a rush to list all my Two Rocks for sale on eBay...NOT. I'm done. Over and out.

[stratotone]

Originally Posted by sfarnell

What do you mean by proprietary? Were they patented? Did he own the rights to to the design? Did he try and patent it? Anyone can label something as proprietary, but that doesn't mean that it is. I don't understand what YOU mean by proprietary. i know what the legal definition of proprietary is.

If you decided to build an amp from scratch or mod an amp, you could NOT go to any reputable transformer manufacturer that is custom winding for an amp manufacturer. I can't call up Mercury Magnetics and ask for a set of Roccaforte 80 watt transformers, nor can I call up whoever winds the Soldano SLO transformers and ask to buy a set. Ain't gonna happen, the salesperson who sold the 50 transformers to Two Rock screwed up BIG TIME. Then again, $$$ talks, and if Ken used different transformers and only built around 100 amps total, that could have been a substantially larger order than they felt Ken would ever place with them.

Having said that, Ken used several different brands of transformers in his amps, and tweaked the hell out of his basic circuit. He mentions in the interview that transformers aren't the only thing that influences the sound of the amp, and that he could make a great amp around a set of decent transformers.

The fact that the Two Rock guys had to find out who wound transformers for Ken, then try to buy that specific part from the manufacturer speaks volumes. It wasn't an accident that they got the 'wreck transformers - they wanted them specifically to clone an amp that they reverse engineered. That was stated in the interview too - that they took apart a trainwreck to copy it. It's an interesting read.

Pete

[allynmey]

Most transformer designs today are based on no longer available trannys that sounded good years ago. Dynaco A470 designs for the Rocket, Connie, and other similar designs (Quad el-84) and the 3801 Stancor which almost all TWExpress and Liverpool were based on...etc. Different Imp. for the Liverpool as well as interleaves but, no one is re-inventing transformers.

[stratotone]

Here's the part of the interview we're talking about... btw, buy the book! It's a cool read.

Another thing that happened to me was, another of my transformer manufacturers had a new sales guy, and this company Two Rock called up and said they wanted 50 of my Trainwreck output transformers. Normally there's a proprietary number on a custom-spec transformer and the company will only provide them to the guy that originally ordered them, but this guy thought they had my permission and whatever, so he sent them 50 of my transformers. When the owner of the transformer company found out he called them up and said "That was a proprietary design" and he notified me that they already had those 50.

Well, they had a guy who had a Trainwreck, and they opened it up and copied it, and put those transformers on, and they were saying it sounded even better than the real thing and all of that. Then a guy who bought one brought it down to me because he wanted to compare it to the real thing, and you know, it sounded nothing like one of my amps at all. Not even close. It was a horrible-sounding amp. The transformer didn't help them at all. I got to hear two or three more of their amps and they weren't any better, and then they came out with a Dumble copy. You know... guys who have talent, they design their own amps.

[GearOnTheBrain]

This is a funny coincidence because i read that interview and thought about posting what Ken said about Two Rock, but decided not to since i knew it would stir up some shit around here.


Luke

[Popoon]

As a survivor of the 'wreck thread i may call my amp build the Number 9 in hommage to Ken.

[Mook]

Originally Posted by sfarnell

Have you ever looked inside an Express? It's a Fender circuit with four modifications.

BUZZZ!!! *WAY* wrong! Sorry.....try again.........



Mook

[Mook]

Originally Posted by sfarnell

From what I've read the guts of a Trainwreck Express are nothing special. A very simple circuit.

True.....it is a simple circuit. However, given that, how come no one can *truly* replicate one?


Mook

[Timmo]

Danm. I hate getting older.
All of a sudden you begin to see both sides to EVERY story.

TR has some 'splainin' to do' all the while Sfarnell has some good points.

Without "reverse engineering" our "everyday lives" would be vastly different.

TR ain't the only guilty party.........come on!

:AOK

[Mook]

Originally Posted by sfarnell

What do you mean by proprietary? Were they patented? Did he own the rights to to the design? Did he try and patent it? Anyone can label something as proprietary, but that doesn't mean that it is. I don't understand what YOU mean by proprietary. i know what the legal definition of proprietary is.

Proprietary does not mean patented. Patented does not mean proprietary. Proprietary information is *exclusive* information to a person, entity, or business. Proprietary information *can* be patented, but does not have to be.

But, I guess proprietary information is not as such if you mod it only 4 times..... ;-)


Mook

[Popoon]

I dont know much about transformers,only that since locomotives started using them no one sings about them anymore.

http://www.thespoon.com/trainhop/songs.html

[sfarnell]

Originally Posted by stratotone

If you decided to build an amp from scratch or mod an amp, you could NOT go to any reputable transformer manufacturer that is custom winding for an amp manufacturer. I can't call up Mercury Magnetics and ask for a set of Roccaforte 80 watt transformers, nor can I call up whoever winds the Soldano SLO transformers and ask to buy a set. Ain't gonna happen, the salesperson who sold the 50 transformers to Two Rock screwed up BIG TIME. Then again, $$$ talks, and if Ken used different transformers and only built around 100 amps total, that could have been a substantially larger order than they felt Ken would ever place with them.

Having said that, Ken used several different brands of transformers in his amps, and tweaked the hell out of his basic circuit. He mentions in the interview that transformers aren't the only thing that influences the sound of the amp, and that he could make a great amp around a set of decent transformers.

The fact that the Two Rock guys had to find out who wound transformers for Ken, then try to buy that specific part from the manufacturer speaks volumes. It wasn't an accident that they got the 'wreck transformers - they wanted them specifically to clone an amp that they reverse engineered. That was stated in the interview too - that they took apart a trainwreck to copy it. It's an interesting read.

Pete

I guess my question is: How did Ken know that TR had reverse engineered or even had access to an Express to open up and copy. This is especially confusing since he had such horrible things to say about the the sound of the TR that came into him. Has anyone opened up a TR Ruby (the offending TR amp) to determine if it is a copy. If TR intended to copy an Express don't you think they would have used the same circuit, type of wires, values, etc, and that their amp would have sounded pretty good ?

There is a lot of speculation going on about what went on between TR and the source of those trannies. Maybe they just contacted the company and said "we know that you make Trainwreck trannies and we want some just like them." Isn't that done with trannies all the time? And, by just buying the trannies would not necessarily mean that the Trainwreck could be cloned...right? Even Ken admitted that.

If someone found out that Dumble had used a certain manufacturer for his trannies don't you think that other amp builders would beat a path to the door of that manufacturer to get ahold of those trannies?

[CPA]

Funny,

Why does it always seem like you guys always find a way to bash Ken?

Persoanlly knowing him he was a humble guy and for the most part did not have an ego. As far as trashing an amp because they copied him I KNOW he would not do it. He even use to give advice to people who wanted to build one for themselves!

You are wrong about him only respecting Dumble. He told me what "other" amps I should check out and that they were very good but different than his.


What he was upset about was he was very sick...medicated with tons of side effects....suffering in many ways I care not to say....never felt good...frustrated he couldn't build anymore and to top it all off people wourld try to clone his amps. Forget about the money for a moment he was most upset about how people constanly compared the clones to his and said they were exact.

He was a man of CHARACTER and a genius.


Jesse160 can confirm this!!



Leave the man alone!!!

[sfarnell]

Originally Posted by CPA

Funny,

Why does it always seem like you guys always find a way to bash Ken?

Persoanlly knowing him he was a humble guy and for the most part did not have an ego. As far as trashing an amp because they copied him I KNOW he would not do it. He even use to give advice to people who wanted to build one for themselves!

You are wrong about him only respecting Dumble. He told me what "other" amps I should check out and that they were very good but different than his.


What he was upset about was he was very sick...medicated with tons of side effects....suffering in many ways I care not to say....never felt good...frustrated he couldn't build anymore and to top it all off people wourld try to clone his amps. Forget about the money for a moment he was most upset about how people constanly compared the clones to his and said they were exact.

He was a man of CHARACTER and a genius.


Jesse160 can confirm this!!



Leave the man alone!!!

This reeks of TRUTH. From what I hear Ken was a hell of a guy and would not disparage other amp builders. I don't trust that what is in the book is an accurate representation of what Ken said or felt.