A real Trainwreck/Ken Fischer thread

[VacuumVoodoo]

Originally Posted by chris_d

The fact and question remains, if there is nothing to it, then why can't the Trainwreck sound be cloned, completely and consistently?
-chris

Simply because true to Kens statement, those who can design their own. The others try to copy. "Me too" club is full of copy cats.

As far as the "secret ingredient" goes it's in plain view but you need to know what you're looking for.

[Popoon]

I could make a clone,market it as a machine for stretching credulity and make a fortune.

[hogy]

Originally Posted by chris_d

The fact and question remains, if there is nothing to it, then why can't the Trainwreck sound be cloned, completely and consistently?

Because it all starts with the builder's ears. You cannot tweak what you cannot hear. As has been mentioned, the Trainwreck school of thought says that many tiny differences add up to a big difference. For that to happen you must first be able to not only detect these details, but also to understand them. You must understand how they will add up, or maybe subtract and cancel each other out. You must understand the sound of the amp, know what it wants to be and how to help it get there.

Ken had a true gift that left me puzzled many times. He'd get a real kick out of it too when I'd call him up to play an amp over the phone for him and he'd say stuff like "oh, you changed the first B+ dropping resistor".

I sure do miss him a lot.


Hogy

[VacuumVoodoo]

Originally Posted by Popoon

I could make a clone,market it as a machine for stretching credulity and make a fortune.

That's a very bold statement, judging by the questions you posted in Amp Technical Section.

[VacuumVoodoo]

Originally Posted by hogy

Because it all starts with the builder's ears. You cannot tweak what you cannot hear.
Hogy

So totally true.

[Popoon]

It wouldnt have to be functional,i may omit unnecessary parts.

[plexi67]

Originally Posted by chris_d

Yes. Exactly what i am saying. Careful attention to detail. Which goes beyond simply putting the right value components in there. Dave Funk, as i understand, built those amps under the supervision and instruction of Ken. I suspect that if you got Dave Funk to talk in detail about it you might find some information about what the difference stems from.

Richie Hall is what i would consider a "careful builder", and between he and his brother, quite a bit about the trainwreck circuits is known. The differences in sound are apparent on the Richie amp comparison as well. I still say there is more to it than the schematic and the layout.

-chris

The amp or clips you were referring too, was an experimentenal amp. It was not the same as the amp or exact in ever detail, it was testing against.
Different transformers,and a couple other minor things. And i also made a simple bonehead mistake,which i corrected when i got the amp back. So it does the things that it didn't do before.or was lacking of..
You can be a carefull builder, but still make a mistake now and then.

http://users.zoominternet.net/~jdhal...20clip%201.mp3
http://users.zoominternet.net/~jdhal...20clip%202.mp3

I know Glen also played other trainwreck [same model], and it also sounded different than his. I believe Even Ken told him they sounded different,because one used a different OT. Still didn't think it was too bad for an amp that was not working as it should.


I was wanting a baseline to at least have something to go by, by someone who knew about,and played a real wreck for many years. Knew how it reacted,and sounded. Not many people have a real wreck to sit next to, and campare as they are building.

If you read through some posts, even Ken would have an amp every now and then that didn't come out like it should. Something that does happen.
I think he even had a scale he went by, that it had to be up to a 8 to 10 standard or he wouldn't sell the amp. he built amps,or wanted his amps to be heard,and in the hands of players,more than a collector.

How may Gibson guitars or Strats, that are made from the same company and are 'exactly' the same.. but may feel, play ,or sound different than one that is "just" like it?
Same with other amps. How many times have you seen .."i owned the best sounding marshall I ever heard" posted.
The thing is, no matter what you think or say, everyone won't feel the same way.

[daddyo]

I'm constantly amazed at the fury of zealots and chauvinists and their sworn enemies, the mockers, here at TGP. Popoon, it's easy to fire off cheap quips at the expense of other peoples thoughts, feelings, and experiences, from behind the comfort of your keyboard. But, like all communities, the git will eventually find himself alone and ostracized.

[lannyhall]

Does anyone know which preamp tubes and which EL34 power tubes Ken liked in his Express amps?

[MoRawk]

Originally Posted by hogy

Ken had a true gift that left me puzzled many times. He'd get a real kick out of it too when I'd call him up to play an amp over the phone for him and he'd say stuff like "oh, you changed the first B+ dropping resistor".

I sure do miss him a lot.


Hogy

That is totally badass. We definitely lost someone with a gift.

[57gold]

Every six months or so as I awaited one of the TW's I ordered.

He was the guy who turned me on to NOS tubes. Mullards, Teles, Bugle Boys...didn't know what he was talking about 20 years ago.

Remember Ken saying that he liked a clear, full frequency tube in V1, a Tele or a Bugle Boy, liked the mids of certain Mullards but "you have to be careful with them, lots of variation". He liked Tele, Mullard and Amperex EL 34s. He delievered many of his Expresses with Siemens EL34s and Tungsrams, got them cheap and would switch them out until he got his tone.

Never got a Wreck. Bought a replica made by one of the fanatical guys who live and breath caps, resistors, transformers, perf boards....stuff I couldn't handle. Bought a soldering iron...burns on fingers, solder splattering...it was a disaster.

The Express circuit is very, very, very tube sensitive. More so than my Komets which sound great with Russian tubes and better with NOS. One 12AX7 change, a Bugle Boy for a Mullard and it's a different amp.

Enjoyed the chats with Ken, was a good break from financial work I do. Love to learn from great teachers. He is missed by many.

[CPA]

Pre war ei's and tungsram were used in trainwrecks.



Funny story. I bought Kenny a couple of speakers he wanted. I bought an amp and took them out and replaced the speakers since they weren't original anyway and sold the amp. When I took them to him he saw the dust on them and said the exact year, make and model of the amp they were in. It floored me and he smiled and said Whatever!



He is truly missed.

[57gold]

Vietnam, Korea, WWII....

[Mook]

Originally Posted by allynmey

Some of our "experts" might want to explain "tweaking" to 'wrecks done by Ken Fischer?

Even one? Heres a chance for our TW owners or KF thread posters that use that word in their posts to explain themselves. Why do you use that phase? Have you looked in your 'wrecks? Have you compared it to others? Or are you sure he had to or else there is no magic.

Time to step up to the plate....describe even one "tweak".

Brew???? Mook???? anyone???

A few things to mention.......I don't know if my Express was a "one of", but there are things in my Express that ARE NOT in any clone (Malaysian or otherwise) or schematic that I've *ever* seen on the web.

Case in point, there is a major change to the bias section in Ingrid 92' that I have YET to find in ANY schem or clone or homebrew. Therefore, in my mind, there REALLY is NO real schem of an Express floating around the web.

There are other tweeks that I just won't get into on this thread and due to respect for Ken and his partners. But after "talking shop" with a number of very high level makers (and Ken's partners), some of the things that might be overlooked as "just a component" really is a tweek and custom part. Trainwrecks don't have a cosmetic appeal -- there's a real "homebrew" and "handmade" vibe about them. I've shown many people my amp and they laugh. "It's made out of spare parts" they say. True, a Trainwreck was built in a basement and had a "homebrew" look to it, but BELIEVE me.......every single component in those amps are used for a reason and used on purpose!!!

A lot of amp makers select components and chassis and build and amp. That's fine, and they do a GREAT job doing it, but if they knew some of these tweeking secrets, we'd have much better amps to select from.

One other thing to remember regarding Trainwrecks. The components are NOT available anymore. The pots, alone, used in Wrecks are FAR different than ANYTHING you can get today. PERIOD! The E-caps are different. The signal caps are different.


Not trying to sound like an ass, here.......but all the amp makers are missing the secrets.....proabably the secrets that will get them the last 10% of the way there. But, the Master is gone. And the secrets are only held by a select few, who will try and carry it on, but might not have the true genius of the Original.

Many people might read this post and curse me, but those "select few" in the know, know.

I'm sorry, but only Ken can build a Trainwreck.......


Mook

[Roccaforte Amps]

Originally Posted by Mook

A few things to mention.......I don't know if my Express was a "one of", but there are things in my Express that ARE NOT in any clone (Malaysian or otherwise) or schematic that I've *ever* seen on the web.

Case in point, there is a major change to the bias section in Ingrid 92' that I have YET to find in ANY schem or clone or homebrew. Therefore, in my mind, there REALLY is NO real schem of an Express floating around the web.

There are other tweeks that I just won't get into on this thread and due to respect for Ken and his partners. But after "talking shop" with a number of very high level makers (and Ken's partners), some of the things that might be overlooked as "just a component" really is a tweek and custom part. Trainwrecks don't have a cosmetic appeal -- there's a real "homebrew" and "handmade" vibe about them. I've shown many people my amp and they laugh. "It's made out of spare parts" they say. True, a Trainwreck was built in a basement and had a "homebrew" look to it, but BELIEVE me.......every single component in those amps are used for a reason and used on purpose!!!

A lot of amp makers select components and chassis and build and amp. That's fine, and they do a GREAT job doing it, but if they knew some of these tweeking secrets, we'd have much better amps to select from.

One other thing to remember regarding Trainwrecks. The components are NOT available anymore. The pots, alone, used in Wrecks are FAR different than ANYTHING you can get today. PERIOD! The E-caps are different. The signal caps are different.


Not trying to sound like an ass, here.......but all the amp makers are missing the secrets.....proabably the secrets that will get them the last 10% of the way there. But, the Master is gone. And the secrets are only held by a select few, who will try and carry it on, but might not have the true genius of the Original.

Many people might read this post and curse me, but those "select few" in the know, know.

I'm sorry, but only Ken can build a Trainwreck.......


Mook

Mook, sorry to disagree here but on your comment regarding parts,
unless you're 100% certain that these parts do not exist,
it is possible for anyone who had them to build a clone.
Meaning identical. I actually have some of these parts
myself. Not by choice, I've been buying tons of surplus
for many years. As far as I know, every amp builder
in the world does the same thing collecting old stuff.
My part collection would make anyone happy who
works with guitar amplifiers.
DR