Why are some clones outlawed but others not?

[Kborg]

This is not meant to start an argument and if you can bear with my long thread I am trying to learn something.

First let me say:

1) I have never played or actually listened in person to an actual Train Wreck.
2) I own a Komet 60 SN#63

I was inspired by Glen Geetarpickers you tube clips and bought his CD. Great stuff Glen! I decided to try a Ceriatone Express clone since I could not find or afford a real Train Wreck. I Liked it and ordered a Liverpool to go with it. I compared the Ceriatone to some highly acclaimed clone builder stuff and thought it held up very well.

When all was said and done the Komet 60 was the amp for me, but I kept the Ceriatones because they were cheap and fun. Recently I had the pleasure of playing a Komet Concorde and liked it so much that I put gear up for trade to try to find a used one that I could afford to go along with my K60.

I didn't get any responses to my trade offer from any Concorde owners but I got 3 offers for clones. I was reluctant but they offered me a week trial so I gave it a chance. This amp was amazing and I still have it.

Sorry for the long set up and I hope you are still with me.

When I decide that I like the Concorde clone so well and I want to get another one for backup since they are more affordable I discovered that all clones are not equal.

Everyone and their brother seems to be brazenly copying every Fender, Marshall and Vox amp ever made with total acceptance by TGP, Ebay and the general gear buying public. They use names like Deluxe, JTM 45 without any issue. There was some issue with Vox and a certain pattern of grill cloth but that was all I really have seen. Most people spoke negatively about Vox, or Korg I think it was, for making a deal about it.

OK my point. I now need to sell some gear to cover my GAS bills and try to sell my Ceriatones and they might as well be stolen gear. TGP bans my listings, Ebay kicks them off as well. I saw another listing for a Concorde Clone and it got killed as well. Both my listing and the other Concorde copy were very clear that they are copies. There is no attempt to fool or trick anyone but they are not allowed.

What gives?? Fender and Marshall directly used existing circuits as I understand. Everyone else copied and put thier own spin on a few basic designs. I can get the beef about the copying of the TW logo and would have no problem removing it even though to the best of my knowledge there were never any plexi faced Wrecks. I could be wrong as I am not an authority. But what about a Concorde clone that has no name on it or TW clone with no markings??

I see other builders amps on TGP and Ebay with Marshall logos and exact copies of the look with no problem.

What gives?

[TBlewz]

Welcome to the "good ole' boy" world.

[Mark C]

It's not about the circuits - it's about the trademarks. Can't sell an amp using someone else's trademarked name.

[quinnamps]

The simple answer is you can ape any amps circuits but when you ape the name of another amp then your being kinda a douche bag.
You could clone my amps (or just figure out what I did to the originals I cloned from) and no worries. If you try to sell a Quinn amp, whatever the circuit might be, your an ass and if I ever had a chance I'd dot your eye.
Ceriatone choose to use Ken amplifer name without permission. He said he was sorry and that he would stop. He did not. This could mean some kind of legal action somewhere in the world and the people who are kind enough to provide this board don't want to get in the middle of it via letting discussions take place regarding that company.
So there is no good old biy thing happening here as far as I can tell.
If I came here hawking my 3 Rock, or my Fuhcs amp or my Carol Annabelle amp I'd be quickly shown the door out. I would hope if anyone came here with Quin Amp they be treated to the same.
I have no qualms with Nik making money of of the circuit design but him using the name is not only illegal but it just simply wrong.
It does suck that your having trouble selling your amp but Nik is the one who created that situation for you. Had he never used the TW you wouldn't have such a problem. Given that Nik used the name, said he was sorry and would stop and then did not..... Well I guess some folks are taking it hard and are now policing anything ceriatone and attempting to knock them down a notch anywhere they can. Seems they are doing a good job of it if your getting booted at eBay and elsewhere. Fender has stopped making faceplates available in quantities over 1 and there is talk that they may go away completely soon enough.
Marshall who knows.....I guess when your really big you can worry about other things, when your someone from Kens family or a friend of his it is a personal thing and therefore perhaps more proactive about dealing with it.....dunno...good luck.

[Kborg]

So If I remove the name and sell it as a Ceriatone 35watter then eveything is OK? Based on what I am hearing it should be that simple.

[outtahear]

There's always the heavy douche factor.....

[quinnamps]

So If I remove the name and sell it as a Ceriatone 35watter then eveything is OK? Based on what I am hearing it should be that simple.

I don't know the exact policy on this forum. You might ask the forum mods what the deal is.

[Paul86]

Kborg,
The dictionary definition for "fraud" is: "criminal deception, dishonest artifice or trick" and therefore might relate to any form of deception. Let's not limit this to matters involving what technically might be called "fraud" at law.
As you yourself pointed out, "Everyone and their brother seems to be brazenly copying every Fender, Marshall and Vox amp ever made with total acceptance by TGP, Ebay and the general gear buying public. They use names like Deluxe, JTM 45 without any issue". and you also pointed out, very reasonably, I might add, "Fender and Marshall directly used existing circuits as I understand. Everyone else copied and put thier own spin on a few basic designs. I can get the beef about the copying of the TW logo and would have no problem removing it even though to the best of my knowledge there were never any plexi faced Wrecks"
Just by referring back to what you very clearly pointed out, where is the "trick", "deceit", "dishonest artifice" in building an amp that everyone (OK, you might argue almost everyone) who would possibly want to buy a, say $25,000 amp, would never, ever mistake it for a, what did you say, plexi faced Wreck.
But you know what, Gibson tried to do exactly the same thing to PRS a while back, remember? Their main argument, apparently, was that customers would "mistakenly" buy a PRS when what they really wanted all along was to buy a Les Paul. Wow, what a stretch of [choose one: (a) imagination (b) people's most basic capacity for reasoning (c) plain, simple horse sense (d) ethics (e) the judicial system's gullibility (f) people's ability to endure foolishness)]. The result? Well, if you don't know, check the latest e-bay ads.
If you've been reading this long, you're probably thinking along these lines: 'Well, if there's no way in hell people can make this kind of fallacy (the technical term is bull####hit) stick, and they damn well know it, who exactly is being dishonest here?'
Well I've asked myself the question, and as a result I've never enjoyed so much some threads here at TGP. I mean, I love them! The sanctimoniousness, the attitude, the seriousness, the 'cloak and dagger', secret-club thing, the sheer inventiveness of some people in the face of honest-to-god competition is something truly to behold. What an inspiration! I mean this is it. I take back what I said sometime back, comedy this good has got to be intentional.

[outtahear]

See Ferrari vs Thom Mc Burnie (Pinch scotch as well) there is legal precedant for copyrighting product shapes or distinctive cosmetic detail.

With cash, all is possible.........

[MoRawk]

Hmmm...can you sell it on eBay as a Ceriatone Wreck, Trainwreck-inspired?

[Roccaforte Amps]

here we go again.......................

[guitarist58]

Originally Posted by Kborg

So If I remove the name and sell it as a Ceriatone 35watter then eveything is OK? Based on what I am hearing it should be that simple.

As far as ebay goes--I think it would be OK (unless, of course, ebay is overreacting and has somehow banned all Ceriatone amp sales). Just don't use the word "Trainwreck" in your copy, or ebay will likely pull it for "category spamming" if nothing else.

Good luck!

[JMintzer]

This has been gone over and over and over.

If your ad shows a Ceriatone (or any other 'clone') with a trademarked logo, it will be pulled.

Ceriatone threads are fine. Ceriatone ads are fine. Ceriatone clones with trademarked logos are not fine. Other amp clones with trademarked logos are not fine. The same goes for guitars.

'Wreck inspired' is fine. 'Dumble inspired' is fine. There was an ad placed today that showed a 'Dumble Overdrive Special' logo on an amp shell. It was a clone using a trademarked logo. It was pulled.

There is no 'good old boy network'. We are trying to be fair across the board.


Jamie

[Scott Peterson]

Originally Posted by JMintzer

This has been gone over and over and over.

If your ad shows a Ceriatone (or any other 'clone') with a trademarked logo, it will be pulled.

Ceriatone threads are fine. Ceriatone ads are fine. Ceriatone clones with trademarked logos are not fine. Other amp clones with trademarked logos are not fine. The same goes for guitars.

'Wreck inspired' is fine. 'Dumble inspired' is fine. There was an ad placed today that showed a 'Dumble Overdrive Special' logo on an amp shell. It was a clone using a trademarked logo. It was pulled.

There is no 'good old boy network'. We are trying to be fair across the board.


Jamie

+1

Yesterday an Edwards Les Paul copy with a Gibson logo on the headstock Emporium ad was pulled. No public cry about that. Hmmm.

It's about trademark infringement, nothing more.

Don't infringe a trademark? No problem. If you do, please keep it off the Emporiums. That's the policy. Discuss them all you want elsewhere on the board, just don't attempt to sell them in the Emporiums.

[Brian Scherzer]

I'm not going to go through a long discussion, so I'll be as brief as possible. There are a lot of websites out there, including music discussion forums. I don't keep up with what all of them are doing but, at least based on what has been said here, Ebay bans the sale of certain items. Ebay has a team of lawyers who advise it, so I assume that their policy is due to the advice of their legal counsel. It appears to be the same advice given to TGP by our legal advisors. In fact, Harmony Central and other discussion sites seem to be pulling threads and asking their members to please not discuss certain things because of the legal implications. We would be stupid not to follow the advice given to us by our own legal team. That advice is that when we receive notification of a trademark or other type of actionable infringement, our best choice is to follow the laws that govern this stuff.........just like many other websites are learning they need to do. We have no intention of trying to be the protectors of all things. We simply won't allow TGP to be placed in a position where it has to shut down because of a legal fight that we (Scott and I) had nothing to do with other then to be the admins of this place. Therefore, if a product violates the trademark of another company, we will not allow it to be sold or promoted here. This has nothing to do with whether or not something is a clone of something else. At least on TGP, we ask members NOT to try to sell an item that obviously infringes on a trademark. If it doesn't infringe on a trademark it is none of our business. Like it or not, that is our policy, and it is a policy that many websites are finding that they have to follow or suffer consequences.