A "Real" Guitar, companies changing hands

[atomicmassunit]

I was thinking about how Fender and Gibson have both been bought and sold a couple times. I have a mental hang up about having a 'real' guitar... the only Fender I would want is a pre CBS one because I feel that is the real Fender company. I know the current owners are making good guitars, but I still feel like they're reproductions, a totally different company who bought the name. The same with Gibson. If someone bought a guitar company from its founder, moved the factory, had different workers, changed how the guitars were made several times, would one of their new models still be a "real" one to you? AKAIK the only really old guitar company that hasn't changed hands is Martin. What's going to happen when the current crop of visionary luthiers pass away or sell the companies? Would you buy the guitars made by the new company?

[WordMan]

Yes. I buy and play guitars that make me want to play and help me expand and improve my playing. Nothing else matters.

I have vintage 50's Gibsons and brand-spankin' new Gibsons. I have had a variety of Fenders over the years and currently have a Parts-O-Tele.

In general I have played vintage dogs, although a great-playing, old-wood vintage guitar is a thing of special beauty from a playing perspective, IMHO. I just wouldn't push it as far as your OP seems to...

[johnmfer]

You do realize this is kind of like saying... "I won't drive a Dodge made after 1998 because that's when Chrysler Corp. was sold to Daimler-Benz. Now that the company has been sold again to Cerberus, man, it's a totally different company. Real Dodges were made before 1998."

[tonedaddy]

Originally Posted by atomicmassunit

0If someone bought a guitar company from its founder, moved the factory, had different workers, changed how the guitars were made several times, would one of their new models still be a "real" one to you? AKAIK the only really old guitar company that hasn't changed hands is Martin. What's going to happen when the current crop of visionary luthiers pass away or sell the companies? Would you buy the guitars made by the new company?

Since many of my favorite, current visionary luthiers perfected their craft while at the "new" Fender, I'd say your concerns are specious.

Many consider that today is the golden age of luthiery.
And there's a great heritage passed down from the early companies.

But I'd wager that if today's current crop of great luthiers were building guitars back in the 50s & 60s (with access to the same materials available back then), today's vintage guitars would sound as good or better than the ones that passed through Leo & Co.'s hands.

[rhinocaster]

I have to say that if we're talking about a one man operation, then of course I want one produced by the man himself. New Zemaitis guitars are great instruments, but I'd only want an original.

Now, Leo Fender didn't make the guitars before CBS. He owned the company. I feel the real Fender guitars are still being made today.

I would no longer consider buying a new DeTemple. I'm sure that his help is fantastic, but I'd want my $6000 Tele to be built by Mike from start to finish.

[twferrill]

Originally Posted by rhinocaster

I have to say that if we're talking about a one man operation, then of course I want one produced by the man himself. New Zemaitis guitars are great instruments, but I'd only want an original.

Now, Leo Fender didn't make the guitars before CBS. He owned the company. I feel the real Fender guitars are still being made today.

I would no longer consider buying a new DeTemple. I'm sure that his help is fantastic, but I'd want my $6000 Tele to be built by Mike from start to finish.

I couldn't agree more. Furthermore, I'll be willing to wager that Gibson and Fender have more luthiers building guitars today than they did back in the fifties. The majority of folks building guitars for Gibson and Fender in the fifties were craftsmen, not luthiers. Maybe they had more skilled craftsmen at the time, but these guys weren't tone tapping wood.

[Karmateria]

I'm definitely one of those people who look for a sort of continuity in the company that makes the product. Even so, I think that the new Fender stuff is probably as good as it has ever been, Leo, George or whomever...

Small shops, now that's a different story. If Paul Reed Smith left PRS, Tom Anderson left Anderson, or Jol Dantzig left Hamer... no dice!

[gixxerrock]

I prefer to support companies run by a visionary builder who cares about what they are doing. G&L is an example of a great company being run true to Leo's vision even though it has changed hands.

[bynt]

I hear what you're saying but I'm of the school that if it's a good guitar that resonates with me, then it's a good guitar. Not flaming anything or anybody but most of the Martins that come in the store where I work don't do anything for me at all. I'm continually disappointed in the sound and build quality. Don't get me wrong, sometimes we'll get some in and I TOTALLY understand the hub bub about them but they're inconsistent, three of them will sound like three different guitars, and lack QC in my opinion. I don't know if changing hands is as much of the problem as trying to turn a dollar. And that's not a bad thing either. It's when stuff suffers from trying to make a profit that things go all pear shaped. Pisses me off because people (especially kids, that irks me more than anything) will buy these guitars just knowing they're getting a good deal because, after all, it IS margibsofenderguild or whatever and end up paying a lot of money for the same laminate crap that some of the over seas companies do better for less money. I think I'm ranting. Sorry for the long post. Bottom line for me is to play a guitar and if I love it, then there you go. I've played both great and horrible guitars from the low hundreds to the several thousand dollar price range (no exaggeration at all, quite literally) from the big manufacturers. Who knew? I just play as many as I can and try to get the ones that kind of choose me.

[Weathered]

Originally Posted by gixxerrock

I prefer to support companies run by a visionary builder who cares about what they are doing. G&L is an example of a great company being run true to Leo's vision even though it has changed hands.

I'm not trying to start any drama here, but Leo Fender didn't play guitar, and probably had no interest in making "the best guitar on the market." He was a radio repairman who saw an opportunity in the solidbody electric guitar and guitar amplifier. He figured out a way to make an electric solidbody guitar cheaper and field-serviceable (modular parts), and just happened to stumble upon two great designs.

[gixxerrock]

Originally Posted by Weathered

I'm not trying to start any drama here, but Leo Fender didn't play guitar, and probably had no interest in making "the best guitar on the market." He was a radio repairman who saw an opportunity in the solidbody electric guitar and guitar amplifier. He figured out a way to make an electric solidbody guitar cheaper and field-serviceable (modular parts), and just happened to stumble upon two great designs.

Good point, Leo wasn't a player. IMO, his greatest strength was an old school common sense approach to quality and knowing where to cut costs and when to refuse to compromise to make a buck. In my experience, when a company is led by someone with a consistent ethical vision, that philosophy will permeate the whole company and become apparent at every level.

[Weathered]

Originally Posted by gixxerrock

Good point, Leo wasn't a player. IMO, his greatest strength was an old school common sense approach to quality and knowing where to cut costs and when to refuse to compromise to make a buck. In my experience, when a company is led by someone with a consistent ethical vision, that philosophy will permeate the whole company and become apparent at every level.

While I agree with the fact that Leo did understand that there are areas that you can't try and save a dollar, Fender does seem to have turned around since the employee buyout of CBS. Honestly, they are making some incredible instruments now, and I've found that the majority of American Fender stuff is really consistent. The CBS era was a dark time in the land of Fender.

[John C]

Originally Posted by Weathered

While I agree with the fact that Leo did understand that there are areas that you can't try and save a dollar, Fender does seem to have turned around since the employee buyout of CBS. Honestly, they are making some incredible instruments now, and I've found that the majority of American Fender stuff is really consistent. The CBS era was a dark time in the land of Fender.

One of Leo's other strengths was the ability to listen to players' needs and interpret what they wanted within the confines of his designs and manufacturing capabilities. We've all read the stories of input on the Strat design from players like Bill Carson.

[kherman]

Carvin comes to mind.
Been family owned since 1946 by the Keisel family.
So, when you buy a Carvin, your buying a real Carvin.

What about Heritage?
I know they've just been recently sold.
But, they are still being made in the same factory, by the same workers.
And the Founders still have input I believe.

How about Hamer USA?
I know they were bought out by Kaman years ago.
But, Jol Dantzig is still a big part of what goes on with Hamer USA.

Same with Parker guitars.
Owned by US music corp.
But, Ken Parker is still very involved with what goes on.

So, I guess I still feel Heritage, Hamer, and Parker are still the real deal
since the original owners are still part of it.

Are Deans real Deans again since Dean Zalinsky has been back in the fold the last decade?

[scottlr]

...and then there's Gretsch, which many folks think the newest version are miles above the originals. I own 2 of them, and they are fine guitars. But I'd still LOVE to own a real vintage Tenny!

I am one of those guys that some folks scoff at because for me, if it's a Strat or Tele, or LP or 335, it has to have Fender or Gibson on the headstock. I will waver a bit if it has G&L or Heritage (not owned a Heritage, but had a nice G&L). As for Gretsch, I tried them because of Setzer. If HE thinks they are good, then they must be. Well, I love my Setzer Sig and 57 RI Silver Jet, but I have yet to get the tones I hear on record from them. Anyway, I am OK with Gibsons and Fenders by the current company owners. Like any guitar made by anybody, it's either good or not.