Cm to F7 and another mode question

[bluesman]

I'm studying some stuff on Robben Ford's latest instructional CD and I have a question. He goes through the tune and Example 15 shows how he subs an Ebmaj7 for the Cm7. I know get that Cm is the relative minor of Eb. But then he's vamping between Cm7 and F7 then says it's very common and, of course, it sounds cool and resolves perfectly. He is saying if you play this voicing of Ebmaj7 over the Cm:

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and then just move your first and fourth fingers so that you're playing:

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then you've got yourself a dominant 7th (F7). Basically he's just playing a little groove using Ebmaj7 and F7 over the Cm.

But over a Cm shouldn't it be Fm7 chord in order to fit? Someone suggested thinking Cm Dorian, which I understand how theoretically that would work, but it sounds like I'm just calling it Dorian to make the theory work.

What am I missing here?

Thanks!

[Austinrocks]

I think your confused, Cm is the relative minor of Eb, however it looks like your in the key of Bb with the notes, Bb C D Eb F G A Bb, the chords have the notes, Cm Dorian is the second mode of Bb so your right it is Cm Dorian

Cm is C Eb G
F7 is F A C Eb

Ebma7 is Eb G Bb D

if it was in the key of Eb with the notes Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb the Fm7 would work, since its notes are

Fmin7 - F Ab C Eb

hope this helps blues man

[bluesman]

Well, the song is in Cm (at least I think it makes sense to say it's in Cm) onacounta the first chord is Cm. The whole thing has just three chords. They are Cm11, Ebm11, and Bb7#9.

Somebody suggested to me that I think Cm dorian (so Bb major) so the F7 would make sense (F7 in Bb major makes sense to me).

But you know what, now that I think about it, maybe the thing is in Bb? That would make everything work, huh?

[willhutch]

To say the song is in Cm can be ambiguous.

It is in the key of Bb. The presence of those 3 chords dictate that it is that key, and none other.

However, in a jam/gig situation, it would be useful to shout out to the sax player, who's asking the key before his solo "C dorian". A lot of cats will just yell out "C" or "C minor" assuming that you can hear that it is a dorian vamp.

You'll want to get your head around this kind of vamp. It is very very common. 50% of santana's tunes use this. It's all over jazz in the form of ii-V-I's. It'll figure prominently in songs of the genre "soul-jazz" funk jazz" or "smooth jazz". If the music has anything to do wth jazz, 9 times out of 10 a minor chord implies the dorian mode.

Enjoy you studies!

[Austinrocks]

A C Dorian will start in Cm or some extended version like Cm7, or Cm11 and Dorian is very common.


Cm11 has the notes

C Eb G Bb D F so it fits the key of Bb

You said the chord was Ebmaj7 not Ebm11, Ebm11 has different notes

Ebm11 has the notes Eb Gb Bb Db F Ab might be a passing chord, not really in the key of Eb or Bb.

Bb7 #9 has the notes Bb D F Ab Db however the #9 is a dissonant chord so it will be out of key

It will fit a chromatic scale, kind of a joke we had in the band, what key is this song in, Bb chromatic works.


Sounds like the song is C Dorian or the key of Bb.

[brad347]

Instead of thinking of it as Ebmaj7 (Ionian), think of it as Ebmaj7#4 (Lydian) and the truths will become self-evident.

[Austinrocks]

[JonR]

Originally Posted by bluesman

Well, the song is in Cm (at least I think it makes sense to say it's in Cm) onacounta the first chord is Cm. The whole thing has just three chords. They are Cm11, Ebm11, and Bb7#9.

Somebody suggested to me that I think Cm dorian (so Bb major) so the F7 would make sense (F7 in Bb major makes sense to me).

But you know what, now that I think about it, maybe the thing is in Bb? That would make everything work, huh?

Cm7-F7 would be a typical C dorian vamp, and that "Ebmaj7" (in fact Ebmaj9) voicing works as a rootless Cm11.
Bb7#9 - in jazz - is normally a V chord in Eb minor (sometimes for Eb major).
What's the exact sequence - chord order and how many bars on each chord?
Are you sure it's Ebm11?
"m11" chords are common indicators of dorian vamps in jazz, so I guess it be a C dorian groove followed by an Eb dorian groove? How does the Bb7#9 come in? where does it resolve?

[bluesman]

Originally Posted by JonR

Cm7-F7 would be a typical C dorian vamp, and that "Ebmaj7" (in fact Ebmaj9) voicing works as a rootless Cm11.
Bb7#9 - in jazz - is normally a V chord in Eb minor (sometimes for Eb major).
What's the exact sequence - chord order and how many bars on each chord?
Are you sure it's Ebm11?
"m11" chords are common indicators of dorian vamps in jazz, so I guess it be a C dorian groove followed by an Eb dorian groove? How does the Bb7#9 come in? where does it resolve?

The tune is called "Oasis" off the Tiger Walk album. I'll have to check out the chart when I get home later to give you the exact bar count but I can tell you that the song starts on Cm11 (Cm4) for at least 12 bars, then at least another 12 on Ebm11 (Ebm4) and then probably 4 bars on that Bb7#9 before it repeats this whole thing again. That's all there is to the song. So to directly answer your question, it resolves to that Cm11.

And I have to retract my earlier statement that if I think of the song in Bb major it makes everything work because it doesn't. If that were the case I would expect the Ebmin11 to be major, not minor because it would be the IV. My lack of modal knowledge is really showing here, I know. But that's why I come here to ask questions.

[brad347]

if the tune has 12 measures or more on a single chord, then there are no 'resolutions' per se because it's static harmony, not functional harmony at that point. When you're in a modal environment like that, the function of chords as they change from one to the other is diluted and it's heard more as "one color shifting to another color." The Cm to Ebm is a common thing... modal sections a third apart to get a lot of 'color contrast' between the two sections. Millions of modal jazz compositions in the 60s and later use this sort of device... "Firm Roots" by Cedar Walton, the bridge of "Inner Urge" by Joe Henderson, "Maiden Voyage" by Herbie Hancock, etc. come immediately to mind. If you're looking for some insight into the probable intent of that progression, it wouldn't hurt to check some of those records out.

The Bb7#9 chord, being of shorter duration, might show traces of functionality. It can function in both Cm and Ebm. In Ebm it is obviously the V7; in Cm it is the bVII7 which is probably the third-most-common dominant-seventh-type resolution tendency after V-I and bII-I. It's altered, which is probably not how Bach would write a bVII in the key of Cm, but it works in this context nonetheless.

[bluesman]

Originally Posted by brad347

if the tune has 12 measures or more on a single chord, then there are no 'resolutions' per se because it's static harmony, not functional harmony at that point. When you're in a modal environment like that, the function of chords as they change from one to the other is diluted and it's heard more as "one color shifting to another color." The Cm to Ebm is a common thing... modal sections a third apart to get a lot of 'color contrast' between the two sections. Millions of modal jazz compositions in the 60s and later use this sort of device... "Firm Roots" by Cedar Walton, the bridge of "Inner Urge" by Joe Henderson, "Maiden Voyage" by Herbie Hancock, etc. come immediately to mind. If you're looking for some insight into the probable intent of that progression, it wouldn't hurt to check some of those records out.

Excellent observations and I think you're definitely on to something. In fact, on the DVD, RF says that he sort of had Miles Davis' 'So What' or Coltrane's 'Impressions' in mind when he wrote this. Those two songs are really just based on two chords. RF just decided he had to add another chord for Oasis.

You've put into words what I felt when I studied this tune but really didn't understand at the time. Thanks.

[brad347]

glad to help!

:BEER

[Deja's Blues]

Another cool example for that sub (EbMaj7 for the Cm7) is when you're doing a slow minor blues in G - when you hit the first change to the IVm chord (Cm7) play the 5th bar Cm7, then the 6th bar EbMaj7.. adds real nice color in place of the Cm7. To take it a step further... when your change back to the Im7 from the IVm7, do the classic "walkdown" over the I starting with Gm, GmM7, Gm7, Gm6 before you hit the V7 chord... Nothing beats that cool walkdown for slow minor Blues... a la Clapton "Old Love"..

[Austinrocks]

Sounds like your working with dorian modes, the first part being a C Dorian, then going to Eb Dorian, its a key change, Cm7 being in C Dorian is key of Bb and Ebm11 being in Eb Dorian key of Db.

[gennation]

Originally Posted by brad347

if the tune has 12 measures or more on a single chord, then there are no 'resolutions' per se because it's static harmony, not functional harmony at that point. When you're in a modal environment like that, the function of chords as they change from one to the other is diluted and it's heard more as "one color shifting to another color." The Cm to Ebm is a common thing... modal sections a third apart to get a lot of 'color contrast' between the two sections. Millions of modal jazz compositions in the 60s and later use this sort of device... "Firm Roots" by Cedar Walton, the bridge of "Inner Urge" by Joe Henderson, "Maiden Voyage" by Herbie Hancock, etc. come immediately to mind. If you're looking for some insight into the probable intent of that progression, it wouldn't hurt to check some of those records out.

You're dead on here.

(I don't have my guitar with me right now to reference, if I make any mistakes please correct me, and I'll edit it as I see fit...but...)

Those "m7 chords a b3rd apart" are at the heart of so many modern modal tunes that longevity wise it's almost the equivalent of a ii-V-I progression in a Jazz Standard, or a I-IV-V in Blues

The cool thing is it creates "parallelisms". Using Cm7->Ebm7, not only can be be thought of as two m7 chords a b3rd apart, but can be thought of as nothing more than Eb Major->Eb Minor (Ebmaj7->Ebm7). Or, it could be handled as nothing more than Cm7-Cm7b5.

Modally Cm7->Ebm7 is considered C Dorian->Eb Dorian. But, using the chords Eb->Ebm you can treat it as Eb Lydian to Eb Dorian. Or using Cm7-Cm7b5 you can treat it as C Dorian->C Locrian.

These are all such common sounds, and most modern modal tunes can be related back to this idea. It also helps you see a lot of inter workings in the progression, as in things working in parallel.

So while you can think of them as disparate chords from two separate Tonics, you can also think of them as different, or "parallel", chords from the same Tonic, Eb or C in this case.

Also, once you start basing things against the harmony notes of the orignal chords you can draw even more "parallels" to the idea of Min-Maj, Maj->Min, Min->Min, and Maj->Maj, and all combinations...that's probably why this progression crops up so many different ways. It's kind of endless from one persons point of view, a HUGE well to draw from.

While I understand the "m7 chords a b3 apart"...there are so many Modal tunes and concepts like that which can be simplified down to the chords falling under one Tonic just waiting to be exploited...

this is where the parallelism and symmetrical sounds come from in modern Modal music.