Help needed Incorporating Diminished ideas as Jazz/Blues

[papablue]

I've scoured the internet as well as this forum for various lessons, tips, suggestions. I'm fairly familiar with the scale in and of itself, but am having a hard time bridging the gap from scale to practical uses.

Yes I'm looking for the out ideas that are fluent in many of the pages favorite players and own members.... Chuck D', Scott L, Robben, Sco, etc.... I feel like I'm not far off from grasping it, but still need a bridge.

Any suggestions/tips/new ways of explaining it or me seeing/hearing it? Any suggested licks I can shed at to help develop my own?
Let's start with just over a static one chord vamp....

[johnboggs]

I find the SCALES hard to use but the ARPEGGIOS much more fun and easy. Try dim7 arpeggios in different sequences and slide them up or down three frets on the same set of strings. I find that a three-position slide (three sets of three fret jumps) ending on the root to be a pretty cool lick.

And to steal from harryj... when you find one cool way to play it, work out four or five more variations. Vary the note sequence, vary the timing, vary the phrasing, etc.

[papablue]

Yeah I'm down with the minor 3rd groupings and using that. And I agree the arp's are definitely more practical to me, and moving through them. I'm guessing it just comes down to more usage/listening. I just find a gap when trying to nail a style/sound as say Chuck D'Aloia (aren't we all...) with what I've picked up so far. Granted this probably will never come, but still I'd like to poke at that flavor more, and get it ingrained as a part of my everyday playing.

I've also seen and I guess am looking for a more detailed/specific usage as begun in this thread...
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/sho...d.php?t=387168

[russ6100]

papablue,

As you may already know, for the half-whole diminished stuff to work over a blues, the timing of where you start to take it "out" and then have some sort of resolution, or bring it back in is pretty important....

Here's a real short mp3 lesson from my website, along with a companion image file of the written music to hopefully get you going:

http://www.russletson.com/sounds/blue_dim_2.mp3

http://www.russletson.com/images/blue_dim2.gif

I'd be glad to answer any questions you might have.

[Gigbag]

Originally Posted by russ6100

papablue,

As you may already know, for the half-whole diminished stuff to work over a blues, the timing of where you start to take it "out" and then have some sort of resolution, or bring it back in is pretty important....

Here's a real short mp3 lesson from my website, along with a companion image file of the written music to hopefully get you going:

http://www.russletson.com/sounds/blue_dim_2.mp3

http://www.russletson.com/images/blue_dim2.gif

I'd be glad to answer any questions you might have.

Cool lick. Thanks for posting the mp3 and transcription.

[derekd]

The cool thing about diminished stuff to me is, you can create little patterns with it and move it around a bunch. Heck you can move it up and down the whole fretboard as long as you stay symetrical with it.

Your ears will forgive the step away from being in the harmony if you create a symetrical pattern, and will latch on to that instead. Pretty interesting dynamic if you ask me. The other way I use stuff like this is to think of 4 note "units" (Tony DeCaprio) rather than a whole scale.

If you think in these 4 note scale chunks, it makes it much more usable imo. There are tons of cool dim licks out there also. Good luck

[Swain]

Using the Dim. over Dominant Chords is pretty hip. Just check out how closely the Dim.7 Chords line up with the Dom.7 Chords:

EX:

C7 = C E G Bb
C#dim7 = C# E G Bb

So, C#dim will work well over a C7, because 3 of the 4 notes are the same.

I hope this might help get you started.

[purestmonk]

best way to internalise the diminished scale, slow yet surely is to take the scale apart and incorporate fragments of the scale into the major scale

[papablue]

Great advice from all, definitely. And I've already been doing this in my playing, before pursuing this motivation to get down a style that is not so much my own. Created some charts and maps, etc.

Transcribing might be the way to go to pick up some more lines/licks of those that I'm looking get 'into their shoes'.

[russ6100]

papablue wrote:

Transcribing might be the way to go to pick up some more lines/licks of those that I'm looking get 'into their shoes'.

Absolutely. Especially if you really want to own it.

[gennation]

You definitely need to wrap your ears around the sound, much like you probably did a some point with the Blues scale licks. Once you heard them you could play them in the right spots, and even expend on them...because you could hear what was right or what was wrong...because you understood the sound.

So, a good place to start getting your ears around the sound is chords. It's good to start finding some progressions that incorporate either diminished chords or diminished substitutions. Once you have something that forces diminished down your throat and it forces you to use "that sound", your ear will be able to develop when and where you might want to try and use it.

IOW, theres a rare chance you'll go from a Mixolydian master to a diminished master overnight. So start find stuff that forces you to use "that sound".

Another thing that helps the flow of diminished lines is to start your first move as a half step move on the "and of a beat" instead of "on the beat", like a "pick up note". Sounds simple but it's very effect.

I think the Dim scale use in Jazz Blues, or Blues is first evident by learning a specific Jazz Blues progression and seeing the V-I's ii-V-I's and how to develop substitutions and Chromatic connections.

So lets see it's use in a V-I, or ii-V-I if you will:

||: Em7 | A7 | Dmaj7 | Dmaj7 :||

Since the A7 is the V7 here you can use a W-H scale from the b7(G W-H), the b9(Bb W-H), the M3(C# W-H), or the 5(E W-H) of the A7 chord.

I find for beginners that starting out with the one from the b9 (or the Bb W-H) helps them with "the sound" quicker...mainly because starting from the M3, 5, or b7 still keeps their ears glued to that Mixolydian sound. But, starting on the odd or outside b9 makes a strong statement right on the first note that this isn't Mixolydian anymore. It's good from them to approach it this way for a bit until they learn how to make a strong "out statement" using inside notes (M3, 5, and b7).

Definitely start your lines on the Bb note, but you could also try using that "pickup note" idea and starting on the "and of 4" on the A note and landing on the Bb note on "the 1 beat", then proceeding through your Bb W-H scale. Just a thought.

Also, when you see that V7 chord, think of it as four Dominant chords a m3rd apart (I'm sure this has already been mentioned). So think of it as A7, C7, Eb7, and F#7.

And if you decipher the W-H scales from each of their M3, 5, b7, and b9 you will find yourself creating new lines in areas you may have not been before. Some will start on notes that fall in A Mixolydian, and some won't. It'll start opening up different "views" and a more complete sound for you.

Also, never forget that a diminished scale not only has four Dominant chords a m3rd apart but also has four m7 chords a m3rd apart, and four m7b5 chords a m3rd apart. So, now you can get some diminished sounds using nothing but dom7, m7, and m7b5 arps!

So where can you use some of this stuff in a 12-bar Blues? Look at this progression:

||: A7 | D7 | A7 | Em7 A7 | D7 | D#dim7 | A7 | F#7 | Bm7 | E7 | A7 F#7 | Bm7 E7 :||

Notice measures 4 and 5 are a ii-V-I (Em7-A7-D7) treating D7 as the I7 chord. So, try the Bb W-H just before resolving to D7 (or D Mixolydian).

Measure 1 and 2 can also be viewed as a V7-I7 (A7->D7). Handling it this way and not losing the listener, or fallinf on your face, can be difficult, so tread lightly before you try a soar.

How about the D#dim7 chord in measure 6? This is a dead ringer for the diminished scale, right?

Now look at measures 7 and 8, you have two dom7 chord a m3rd apart. You can think of those as a diminished subset of chords...

So, maybe play A7 arps over A7, then play the Bb W-H scale over the F#7 chord, or better yet...try the G W-H scale over the F#7 because it would really reference the b9 of the F#7 chord!!!!

Or, you might even substitute A7, C7, Eb7, and F#7 chords and arps interchangeably or the A7 and F#7 chords...EXPERIMENT!

And remember each of those four Dominant chords each have m7b5 chord built from their M3's, so also experiment with C#m7b5, Em7b5, Gm7b5, and Bbm7b5...again...EXPERIMENT.

So, there's three spots right there that you can incorporate diminished "thinking" into the blues by looking at nothing but the straight chord chart/progression.

The next thing would be substituting over the the last 2 measures to create Chromatic movement.

Without going into a ton of detail of "how" you get there you can change the last 2 measure a few ways to give yourself more a of diminished view to them.

The last two measure are:

| A7 F#7 | Bm7 E7 |

By using the "four dominant chords for every dominant chord" idea, you can change F#7 to C7 and change E7 to Bb7 to get this chromatic movement:

| A7 C7 | Bm7 Bb7 |...resolving back to A7 on measure 1 again.

So you have the Root movement of C->B->Bb->resolving to A.

Next you can change the Bm7 to a B7 if you want too, to get:

| A7 C7 | B7 Bb7 |...resolving back to A7 on measure 1 again.

So now not only do you have the Chromatic Root movement, but you also have a pure Chromatic chordal line of ALL dom7 chords!!!! A7->C7->B7->Bb->resolve to A7.

And each of those dom7 chords has four dom7s, for m7b5, and four m7 chords you can associate with them!!!!!!

Definitely try and comprehend somethings you can play with these "Chromatic" possibilities BUT...try to also just let your fingers do the walking and you'll feel just how free you can play over these chords...

practice this "freedom"!!!!

Pretty cool stuff!

[?&!]

Originally Posted by gennation

You definitely need to wrap your ears around the sound, much like you probably did a some point with the Blues scale licks. Once you heard them you could play them in the right spots, and even expend on them...because you could hear what was right or what was wrong...because you understood the sound.

So, a good place to start getting your ears around the sound is chords. It's good to start finding some progressions that incorporate either diminished chords or diminished substitutions. Once you have something that forces diminished down your throat and it forces you to use "that sound", your ear will be able to develop when and where you might want to try and use it.

IOW, theres a rare chance you'll go from a Mixolydian master to a diminished master overnight. So start find stuff that forces you to use "that sound".

Another thing that helps the flow of diminished lines is to start your first move as a half step move on the "and of a beat" instead of "on the beat", like a "pick up note". Sounds simple but it's very effect.

I think the Dim scale use in Jazz Blues, or Blues is first evident by learning a specific Jazz Blues progression and seeing the V-I's ii-V-I's and how to develop substitutions and Chromatic connections.

So lets see it's use in a V-I, or ii-V-I if you will:

||: Em7 | A7 | Dmaj7 | Dmaj7 :||

Since the A7 is the V7 here you can use a W-H scale from the b7(G W-H), the b9(Bb W-H), the M3(C# W-H), or the 5(E W-H) of the A7 chord.

I find for beginners that starting out with the one from the b9 (or the Bb W-H) helps them with "the sound" quicker...mainly because starting from the M3, 5, or b7 still keeps their ears glued to that Mixolydian sound. But, starting on the odd or outside b9 makes a strong statement right on the first note that this isn't Mixolydian anymore. It's good from them to approach it this way for a bit until they learn how to make a strong "out statement" using inside notes (M3, 5, and b7).

Definitely start your lines on the Bb note, but you could also try using that "pickup note" idea and starting on the "and of 4" on the A note and landing on the Bb note on "the 1 beat", then proceeding through your Bb W-H scale. Just a thought.

Also, when you see that V7 chord, think of it as four Dominant chords a m3rd apart (I'm sure this has already been mentioned). So think of it as A7, C7, Eb7, and F#7.

And if you decipher the W-H scales from each of their M3, 5, b7, and b9 you will find yourself creating new lines in areas you may have not been before. Some will start on notes that fall in A Mixolydian, and some won't. It'll start opening up different "views" and a more complete sound for you.

Also, never forget that a diminished scale not only has four Dominant chords a m3rd apart but also has four m7 chords a m3rd apart, and four m7b5 chords a m3rd apart. So, now you can get some diminished sounds using nothing but dom7, m7, and m7b5 arps!

So where can you use some of this stuff in a 12-bar Blues? Look at this progression:

||: A7 | D7 | A7 | Em7 A7 | D7 | D#dim7 | A7 | F#7 | Bm7 | E7 | A7 F#7 | Bm7 E7 :||

Notice measures 4 and 5 are a ii-V-I (Em7-A7-D7) treating D7 as the I7 chord. So, try the Bb W-H just before resolving to D7 (or D Mixolydian).

Measure 1 and 2 can also be viewed as a V7-I7 (A7->D7). Handling it this way and not losing the listener, or fallinf on your face, can be difficult, so tread lightly before you try a soar.

How about the D#dim7 chord in measure 6? This is a dead ringer for the diminished scale, right?

Now look at measures 7 and 8, you have two dom7 chord a m3rd apart. You can think of those as a diminished subset of chords...

So, maybe play A7 arps over A7, then play the Bb W-H scale over the F#7 chord, or better yet...try the G W-H scale over the F#7 because it would really reference the b9 of the F#7 chord!!!!

Or, you might even substitute A7, C7, Eb7, and F#7 chords and arps interchangeably or the A7 and F#7 chords...EXPERIMENT!

And remember each of those four Dominant chords each have m7b5 chord built from their M3's, so also experiment with C#m7b5, Em7b5, Gm7b5, and Bbm7b5...again...EXPERIMENT.

So, there's three spots right there that you can incorporate diminished "thinking" into the blues by looking at nothing but the straight chord chart/progression.

The next thing would be substituting over the the last 2 measures to create Chromatic movement.

Without going into a ton of detail of "how" you get there you can change the last 2 measure a few ways to give yourself more a of diminished view to them.

The last two measure are:

| A7 F#7 | Bm7 E7 |

By using the "four dominant chords for every dominant chord" idea, you can change F#7 to C7 and change E7 to Bb7 to get this chromatic movement:

| A7 C7 | Bm7 Bb7 |...resolving back to A7 on measure 1 again.

So you have the Root movement of C->B->Bb->resolving to A.

Next you can change the Bm7 to a B7 if you want too, to get:

| A7 C7 | B7 Bb7 |...resolving back to A7 on measure 1 again.

So now not only do you have the Chromatic Root movement, but you also have a pure Chromatic chordal line of ALL dom7 chords!!!! A7->C7->B7->Bb->resolve to A7.

And each of those dom7 chords has four dom7s, for m7b5, and four m7 chords you can associate with them!!!!!!

Definitely try and comprehend somethings you can play with these "Chromatic" possibilities BUT...try to also just let your fingers do the walking and you'll feel just how free you can play over these chords...

practice this "freedom"!!!!

Pretty cool stuff!

Awesome advice. Thanks!!!

[tvegas99]

great post...thanks for the info!

[Fourth Feline]

Originally Posted by johnboggs

I find the SCALES hard to use but the ARPEGGIOS much more fun and easy. Try dim7 arpeggios in different sequences and slide them up or down three frets on the same set of strings. I find that a three-position slide (three sets of three fret jumps) ending on the root to be a pretty cool lick.

And to steal from harryj... when you find one cool way to play it, work out four or five more variations. Vary the note sequence, vary the timing, vary the phrasing, etc.

Now that sounds like a great ( and accessible ) way to handle the job, thanks for the insight !

[mike walker]

Take a typical diminished chord movement. Csharp Dim to Dm7. Dim scale from C sharp is WT ST etc (can also be viewed as a v chord to a Imin chord as in A7b9 to Dm7) so from A it's the same dim scale but ST WT etc.
Ok. The min 3rd movement can be played with so it isn't so static sounding.
A typical line might be Bb Csharp E G as an arp, then this is moved up in min 3rds. Play the the first group as is 1 Bb 2 Csharp 3 E 4 G. Play the second group Csharp E G Bb as 3 1 2 4, that's G Csharp E Bb : But, play this group an octave down. Think about the next group and keep that within reach of the 1st and 2nd group. ETC ETC.
This forces you to get outside the comfort zone of just planting the same notes up or down a min 3rd.
Play the scale slowly all over the neck. When you move the scale in min 3rds don't forget that you miss the position in between each min third
movement. Try not to get sucked into the symmetry to the point that you neglect the positions in between.

http://www.mike-walker.co.uk/audio/m...InTwoMinds.mp3

http://www.mike-walker.co.uk/audio/m...r-DadLogic.mp3