So how good is Axe-Fx amp modeling, really? I have an idea...

[stratzrus]

Originally Posted by Rupe

Please fill us in as to your personal experience with the Axe-Fx

Rene had an Axe FX a while back (two years ago?) and felt it didn't capture the tone and feel of a tube amp and has been posting to that effect ever since. I doubt he has tried the latest firmware but also doubt it would make a difference in his opinion.

To each his own.

[xjojox]

Originally Posted by rburkard

Just ask Joe Bonamassa or Eric Johnson, Robben Ford or any significant player with a distintive sound whether they would substitute their live rigs for an Axe or use it in the studio to record their latest releases. Digital or emulation guitar amp processors are the poor mens' choice. They are practical for a lot of applications and probably helpful in a wedding band where loudness is a concern.
Rene

Plenty of players at that level of artistry use the axe, live and in the studio, so you've cherry-picked a few guys who wouldn't.

You make a good point, regarding players with a "distinctive sound". I made the same point earlier, if you have a very distictive sound and style that requires a simple setup based on a favorite amp, there's no reason to use anything else (presuming you can turn your amp up enough to get to it's sweet spot no matter where you play).

On the other hand, people who prefer to explore the different tones, textures, and feel of different rigs (without buying them all) love the axe. Likewise, players who need the same tone and response at widely different volume levels also love the axe.

People who go back to an amp after using the axe generally do so in my experience for a specific reason: they love the sound and feel of a very particular rig and go back to it. There's nothing wrong with that, any more so than buying a Fuchs and going back to your Two-Rock, or buying a Diezel and going back to your Bogner, because it's more your thing. I used a lot of mesa stuff over the years, and would occasionally switch to Rivera but I would always go back to mesa because they felt more "at home" to me. But I didn't dis the Riveras, I still own one and they are great amps. I don't think it's reasonable to say a Diezel doesn't feel like a tube amp just because you like the Bog better or vice versa. Most users of the Axe went through, and continue to own, high-end tube amps. It's more than a little condescending to suggest that none of us know what a tube amp feels like. I've been playing over 40 years and I've owned more tube amps than I can remember, from basic to very boutique. I stand my ground. It may not replicate any *particular* amp, but it feels and responds like a tube amp and is more versatile than any tube amp out there.

I find it curious that there are a lot of folks who would say the plexi mode of the axe doesn't replicate a plexi, but they've never put it on a stack of the same speakers and played it at the same volume level. Or say it can't really do a boutique class A but likewise haven't put it on the same small open-back cab that they were playing their Dr Z thru. I've A/B'd the axe comparing apples to apples to numerous other amps, as have many others who took the time to investigate. With many amps it's very close, and with some it's damn near impossible to tell the difference blindfolded. But even that doesn't really matter, because to me I don't care if it sounds just like this or that; I just want it to sound and feel good and it does.

"Poor man's choice" is an odd choice of words, it's a pretty expensive piece of high-end gear.

[pbradt]

As with a physical tube amp, the results you get from an Axe-Fx depend as much on you as on the device. If you expect to cycle through the factory presets and discover the "perfect sound," odds are you'll be disappointed. If, OTOH, you are able to recognize the potential of the Axe-Fx to create the sounds you want to hear, and if you're willing to invest some time and effort to realize that potential, it is likely that you'll get results that please you.

That's the point. I am not willing. I can fire up any of my amps, tweak for a few seconds and go. And they sound real.

I know a guy who was using a Pod XT live at an open mic (he was in the house band) and a lot of people were forced to play through it. They don't show up any more.

[octatonic]

I use an Axe FX Ultra in my main rig.
Marks out of 10:

High gain modern tones: 10/10
Medium gain tones: 9/10
Cleans: 7/10
Effects: 10/10

IMHO the only real let down is the cleans aren't as great as they could be.
They are usable certainly- I use them.

[rburkard]

Here is what I wrote back then:

The issue of coming up with a Swiss army knife approach and product that “CAN DO IT ALL” for guitar players to replace multiple tube amp combinations in combination with state of the art effects processing is as old as 24 years from my professional experience. A tiny little box with a lot of brainpower that was capable of replacing everything that guitar playing tone connoisseurs were asking for has been an unfulfilled promise by all manufacturers in musical industry. While the sound quality of digital effects signal processing made tremendous progress over the last decade, I have to say that this is mainly due to significantly decreased pricing of components. Lexicon, AMS, Quantec and Eventide had even more than 20 years ago incredible sounding signal processors. They were however priced accordingly and were way out of the reach of mere musicians or hobby/bedroom players. You would usually only see these units the top recording studios in the world.
They were also not necessarily extremely “mobile” if you think of a Lexicon 240 or Lexicon 480 and needed a lot of ventilation to assure reliable performance.
Sound quality in professional signal processing has not noticeably improved. It just got a lot cheaper and smaller.

When I received my Fractal Axe-FX several weeks ago I was very curious about how it would sound after having heard such phenomenal reviews and buzz about these units. Tube amp sounds in a box with easy editing and real tube amp feel was what I was expecting. After stepping through all the program patches and getting quickly familiar with editing any kind of parameters, being it boosts, amps, speaker cabinets and microphone types, I recorded several tracks on ProTools.

I compared these tracks to tracks that I laid down weeks and months earlier on a particular “up tempo shuffle” of a three piece band mix that I always use as a reference for checking out new gear. The guitar lines that were recorded were pretty much the same that I laid down on each of the other tracks, all in all 14 different tube amp combinations. A range of distorted lead, laid back clean and swelling effects with the volume pot of a vintage Fender 65 Strat. All tracks were cut using the same 65 vintage strat. The tube amps that were used are listed below as well as the speakers and respective booster pedals:
1. Reinhardt “The 18” / Celestion G1265 / Lead channel
2. Reinhardt “The 18” / Eminence Tonespotter / Lead channel
3. Fuchs ODS 30 / Celestion G12H30 Heritage / Clean channel with Blackstone MosFET Overdrive
4. Fender 57 twin / Weber Alnicos / Blackstone MosFET Overdrive
5. Dr. Z Stingray / Celestion G1230 Anniversary/ Blackstone MosFET Overdrive
6. Divided by 13 RSA23/ Click Channel/ 4x12 closed back cabinet with Celestion G12M Anniversary
7. Divided by 13 RSA23 / Click Channel / 2x12 closed back Celestion Golds
8. Top Hat Club Royale/ Celestion G1230 Anniversary/ Blackstone MosFET Boost
9. Louis Electric Mini Bluesbreaker / Celestion Gold/ Divided by 13 / BSM Ambassador Booster
10. Louis Electric KR12 / Celestion G1230 Anniversary
11. Matchless SC-30 /Celestion G12H Anniversary/ Divided by 13 Dynaranger Booster
12. Matchless Phoenix / Celestion G12H Anniversary/ Pentode channel/ Divided by 13 Dynaranger Booster
13. Matchless Phoenix / Scumback M75 HP/ Pentode channel/BSM Ambassador Booster
14. Ceriatone Overtone Special / Celestion G1265 Heritage / lead channel
All tube amps were close miked with just one Royer 121 Ribbon microphone at the same distance and at the same angle, and they sounded as you might expect all different.
I recorded several tracks with the Fractual to approximate respective sounds that I achieved previously with any of the above tube amps. After listening to the mix with each individual combination I found the Fractual Axe to be convincing only with clean sounds. The crunchy sounds were better with any of the tube amps. The distorted sounds of the Fractual were no match to any of the tube amps and sounded too harsh. Most importantly they did not deliver a convincing tube amp feel and response. I had to compensate my playing for the lack of dynamics and I felt a steady tendency to overplay and dig in too much. I feel this has to do with the lack of dynamics. Tweaking the sounds on the Fractual to make them sound warmer and more tube-like had the effect that the sounds did not cut in the mix as well anymore. All the tube amp tracks sounded warmer while sticking out noticeably better in the mix at the same time.
On the plus side I have to say that the layout and editing of the Fractual AXE is awesome compared to everything that I have ever used in the past in terms of outboard FX gear. The effects are top notch too and the speaker and microphone simulations are pretty realistic and convincing from patch to patch once you start making comparisons. I did not use the Fractual AXE in combination with any of the tube amps and can’t comment on that. Playing it through my Bose L1 systems or a QSC HPR122i Powered 2-way speaker gave the same impression I had playing it through any of my studio near field monitors. On the other hand using a simple Sennheiser 409 microphone in front of my Matchless Phoenix or Matchless SC-30 resulted in a much more pleasing and powerful sound through the QSC or the Bose systems. Using an inexpensive Hughes & Kettner Red Box Classic DI in addition to the microphone, set up in a true stereo panning of the two signals, I achieved a perfect and accurate amplification of any of the two amps. In this scenario the amps were miked in an isolated room so that I could just hear the signal from the QSC’s or the Bose L1 systems.
Most important differences are the playing dynamics. The response with the Fractual is noticeably more “non-direct” and you don’t feel the immediacy of the response of a good tube amp. With all digital devices you have to keep in mind that the processor can only work on the principle of “first signal in, first signal out” before it can process the second signal. Of course this happens at literally lightning speed, but it is still different to analog signal processing which does not have the same “delay” issues as digital.
Regarding my experiences and my sound preferences I still can’t confirm a breakthrough in digital or remodeling guitar sound amplification. Tube amps still rule and this probably still for quite some years down the road. You also won’t see that players like Chris Robinson, Jimmy Page, Mike Chambell, Eric Johnson, Leslie West, Doyle Bramhall II, Robben Ford or Joe Bonamassa will trade in their amps in for a digital processor and use it on stage or in the studio.
I can imagine that we will see digital guitar tube emulating devices that use separate processors for preamp, power amp and speaker simulation as well as separate processors for all the other effects. These units will be closer to the Holy Grail benchmark everybody is looking for. Will they be able to match it? We won’t know until we’ve tried.
Rene

Originally Posted by Rupe

Please fill us in as to your personal experience with the Axe-Fx

[stratzrus]

Originally Posted by pbradt

I know a guy who was using a Pod XT live at an open mic (he was in the house band) and a lot of people were forced to play through it. They don't show up any more.

I wouldn't either.

Rene, I hope I didn't misstate your position. I'd be interested to hear your evaluation of a well dialed in Ultra using v10.0 firmware through proper amplification. You may feel the same but there have been significant improvements.

[rburkard]

I might very well do a test with a friend’s Ultra that is loaded with the latest firmware once my just recently flooded studio is up and running again, which unfortunately might take several months. It is amazing to see and hear what can be done nowadays with fast processors, smart engineers, musical ears and a dedication to capturing sounds that are otherwise produced by technically antiquated gear. The challenge here is that the majority of classic electric guitar sounds are the result of absolute imperfection. Transformers that were not designed correctly, caps and resistors that are wrong, wirings that were done almost by accident, loudspeakers that are really crappy from a performance standpoint, microphones that were far from being objective. The list goes on and on. The magic that happened is that people got used to these unintentionally produced sounds and started liking them for the music that was associated with them. Nobody can say that vintage sounds are the epitome if you isolate them from certain musical genres people associate them with. As a matter of fact they are most likely not. There is only a holistic approach to sound and sound preferences. This is why it does really not matter if you can generate new sounds on technically superior musical equipment that gives you almost unlimited sound possibilities. These new sounds don't really count unless somebody makes them count in terms of a signature sound and they start becoming trendy. I don't know anyone around who developed a new guitar sound that kicked butt within a broader audience over the last two decades.
Rene

Originally Posted by stratzrus

I wouldn't either.

Rene, I hope I didn't misstate your position. I'd be interested to hear your evaluation of a well dialed in Ultra using v10.0 firmware through proper amplification. You may feel the same but there have been significant improvements.

[stratzrus]

Originally Posted by rburkard

Nobody can say that vintage sounds are the epitome if you isolate them from certain musical genres people associate them with. As a matter of fact they are most likely not.

Agreed.

Personally, I've never been one to chase vintage sounds which is probably why I get along so well with the Sig:X and Axe FX.

The Sig:X gives me great modern Jazz tones and the Axe FX provides a wealth of modern popular tones.

When I want a traditional sound I always can plug my 335 or Strat into my Super Reverb and there it is, but because I've never really had an interest in copping someone else's tone (Ford, Johnson, SRV...whoever) getting a genuine vintage tone (i.e. Strat through a plexi) has never been a priority.

[Rena Rune]

Originally Posted by nightbird

I hate comparison threads. First, it's unfair to compare using digital technology to compare tubes vs digital. Tube response as opposed to digital is more of personal thing. I wouldn't even do a blind test because to many variables come in to play ie style, pick attack, unfamiliarity of someones playing. But I could tell the difference if, personally, I played through both.
Tube vs Axe FX , isn't about tone but tube response and feel and as of now I haven't found any digital unit that can produce that effect.
Close but not there. Nothing against the Axe FX but digital cannot create a true tube feel. I bought into the POD/ Line 6 stuff when it first appeared. i enjoyed all the amp choices but after awhile the lack of tube response became uninspiring. Every once in a while I venture back into the digital realm but soon after wander right back out.

Have you actually tried an Axe FX? With an Axe-FX, it also matters what you're using with it, you need a good FRFR rig or turn off the cab sim and use a real cab.

You'd be surprised how much psychology over-rides what you hear. If you really got it in you that digital stuff sounded like tubes, instead of just "giving it a whirl", then you'd probably be taken by it.

Also it's going to keep improving anyway.

[Dr Git]

One thing I'll give the Axe FX (aside that i own and like it).it gets more TGP Press then anything else in my years on here....lol

[suparsonic]

Originally Posted by GreatGreen

Some people who use the Axe-Fx say that it sounds and feels just like a tube amp. Some people who swear by tubes say that the Axe-Fx sounds digital, a little bit fake, not as warm as tubes, etc.

I have an idea that might help shed light on whether the Axe-Fx really does sound as good (or not as good) as everybody says it does. Post a clip in this thread. The clip can be either a real tube amp or an Axe-Fx, but don't tell us whether or not the clip is an Axe-Fx for a while. Also, try to keep the clips pretty dry. This thread is about the amp modeling accuracy of the Axe-Fx, not its effects.

We'll see how accurate people's guesses are. If everybody can tell which is which right off the bat, then the Axe-Fx probably isn't that "amp like." However, if people have a lot of trouble telling which is which, then we might be able to see that this thing could be exactly what the enthusiasts are saying it is.

Take it to the "Amp Moddling" forum. FFS!

[Rena Rune]

MODDLING

I think the issue here is that the MODDLING forum is a bit segregated from the rest of the forum, and he wanted to get opinions from the wider amp forum for once.

[phretbored]

I really really dig tube amps and I will always have one (or more) around because they sound great and they are simply cool.

And I have no problem embracing the AXE FX ULTRA.
I totally want one and will get one but yeah I will keep my favorite tube amps as well.

The AXE FX is a gamechanger
It's disruptive technology and that makes some people really uncomfortable while at the same time it makes other people really enthused and inspired.
It's inevitable that something like this would come along.
Tomorrow is here today.

Enjoy this fantastic technology for what it is rather than worry about what it is not.

[Guts]

Originally Posted by Den

Listening to clips isn't going to tell you anything about how an amp feels.

Precisely.

What that means is, how does it react to your playing?
Not saying the Axe doesn't react like a tube amp though. I don't own it.

[stratzrus]

The Axe FX is excellent at modeling, but it is not a tube amp. It you want a tube amp, get a tube amp. If you want all of the things an Axe FX can do that a tube amp can't, get an Axe FX.

To me, it's that simple.