Need help swinging...

[Ferg Deluxe]

I'd like to work on my swing feel, but don't know exactly where to start. When I start to swing, things come out unintended as a triplet feel instead of a swing feel. Any good ideas on where to start from nearly ground zero?

Thanks!

[wooldl]

You've got to have a beat.........and then it's

1 and, 2 and, 3 and, 4 and, etc....... down-strokes on the 1,2,3 & 4 while upstroking on the 'ands'

It's harder to put into words (type) than it is to play it.

Hope this helps a little.

[Tom Gross]

Try setting the metronome on 1/2 time, then having the click on beats 2 & 4.
Tap your foot on all 4, but let the click be just on 2 & 4.

This really works.

There's a Emily Rimler video where she explains it, I think the title is something like "Swing and Bebop guitar" the video has been around a few years, i got it on Ebay, but it as as Tom Say's.

[EricT]

Originally posted by Tom Gross
Try setting the metronome on 1/2 time, then having the click on beats 2 & 4.
Tap your foot on all 4, but let the click be just on 2 & 4.

This really works.

This is exactly what my teacher has me doing, and it has really helped my swing feel.

[FrankW]

Don't play eighth-notes with a triplet feeling (especially at faster tempos), but rather play even eights and try to accent the off-beats and to articulate the down-beats as often as possible using slurs, hammer-ons or pull-offs. This results in a more horn-like phrasing and, along with setting the metronome on 2 and 4 as suggested, really makes you swing.

[jzucker]

Originally posted by FrankW
Don't play eighth-notes with a triplet feeling (especially at faster tempos), but rather play even eights and try to accent the off-beats and to articulate the down-beats as often as possible using slurs, hammer-ons or pull-offs. This results in a more horn-like phrasing and, along with setting the metronome on 2 and 4 as suggested, really makes you swing.

Even 8ths with accents on the off beats (I assume you mean upbeats) is not swinging. Swinging is typically based on the triplet feel. Buy Miles Davis' Kind of Blue and listen to his phrasing. It's impeccable.

[Tag]

Originally posted by jzucker
Buy Miles Davis' Kind of Blue and listen to his phrasing. It's impeccable.

Magical CD....Just put it into my deck again, and it will stay there for a solid month like it always does.

[FrankW]

Even 8ths with accents on the off beats (I assume you mean upbeats) is not swinging. Swinging is typically based on the triplet feel.

Jack, I agree, even eights are not swinging per se. However, neither are triplet eights.
I should have made my point a little clearer. If Ferg Deluxe stated in his initial post that

things come out unintended as a triplet feel instead of a swing feel

this sound familiar to problems many of my students have when they try to start to play with a swing feeling. It is my experience that, for a beginner, if you lay to much emphasis on the triplet feeling, it almost always results in a sort of galloping rhythm with a heavy accent on the downbeat, and that most certainly does not swing. To get rid of this kind of phrasing, I found it helpful not to think to much about even or triplet eights initially, but to concentrate on the upbeats (sorry, I mixed this up). With accents I did not mean that the upbeats have to be really accented but they should just be (for practicing purposes) more accented than the downbeats. I find that this can result in a more flowing articulation and then I start to think about how the eights notes are played (even or triplet).
Also, I really think that the way eighth notes are articulated depends very much on the tempo you play in. In slow or medium tempos there certainly is a triplet feeling to eights notes, but a triplet feeling is just impossible in flowing up-tempo lines.
Finally, I totally agree that you should listen to the Jazz Greats as often as possible. That is where the swing feeling comes from (especially Horn players). You will learn a lot more about Swing from listening to records or concerts than from reading books or posts and you will also find out that a definite Swing feeling does not exist (otherwise it would be easier to explain)

[jzucker]

The triplet *IS* the basis of all swing music from the Count Basie period up through the '60s. During the mid '60s the swing feel became slightly more relaxed but all you have to do is listen to some '50s Count Basis, Miles' Kind of Blue or even Mike Brecker's "Time is of the Essence" (Check out Metheny's playing on that record) to hear the triplet feel.

Miles Davis's early '60s records epitomized the triplet feel in jazz.

I agree with you that it's difficult to get beginners to learn to vary the triplet feel along with the tempo and that students often go wildly galloping into the distance with exaggerated triplets but they still need to understand that's the base for this feel.

When in doubt, listen to Basie's Lil Darlin'.

That's triplet feel heaven!

[seafoamer]

Do yourself a favor & buy this double CD: I think it's called "The Quintessential Charlie Christian" (or something like that). It's a collection of some of the best stuff ever recorded of Christian and the Benny Goodman band.

In my opinion it should be required listening for every gtr player who even thinks about playing jazz.

Just listening to this album will give you more insite into "swing" than I could ever put into words. Maybe transcribe a solo or 2 and you'll start to really get cookin'.

[jzucker]

Originally posted by seafoamer
Do yourself a favor & buy this double CD: I think it's called "The Quintessential Charlie Christian" (or something like that). It's a collection of some of the best stuff ever recorded of Christian and the Benny Goodman band.

In my opinion it should be required listening for every gtr player who even thinks about playing jazz.

Just listening to this album will give you more insite into "swing" than I could ever put into words. Maybe transcribe a solo or 2 and you'll start to really get cookin'.

I think that's a great album but the swing feel of that era is so different than a modern swing feel that I hesitate to recommend it to someone who is trying to learn a modern jazz feel.

Miles Davis' Kind of Blue is the Standard for modern swing.

[seafoamer]

Originally posted by jzucker
I think that's a great album but the swing feel of that era is so different than a modern swing feel that I hesitate to recommend it to someone who is trying to learn a modern jazz feel.

Miles Davis' Kind of Blue is the Standard for modern swing.

Ooow, I don't know if I agree. Ferg Deluxe states "Any good ideas on where to start from nearly ground zero?"

Also, Every player jives a little differently. Cannonball jived differently compared to Trane, who played very differently compared to Miles ....Wayne Shorter...etc,etc.

Coltrane didn't sound like his influences because he took it to a NEW place. When I suggest this album, it's not because I think everyone should sound like the playing on it, but because the spirit on this album can inspire like a bastar(d), no matter what particular style you jive with.

[Tag]

Originally posted by seafoamer
Ooow, I don't know if I agree. Ferg Deluxe states "Any good ideas on where to start from nearly ground zero?"

Also, Every player jives a little differently. Cannonball jived differently compared to Trane, who played very differently compared to Miles ....Wayne Shorter...etc,etc.

Coltrane didn't sound like his influences because he took it to a NEW place. When I suggest this album, it's not because I think everyone should sound like the playing on it, but because the spirit on this album can inspire like a bastar(d), no matter what particular style you jive with.

Cannonball totally and completely blows me away everytime I listen to him. Personally, one of my favorite players ever. That combination of soul, blues and jazz was just right for me. Damn that guy could play.

[jzucker]

Originally posted by seafoamer
Ooow, I don't know if I agree. Ferg Deluxe states "Any good ideas on where to start from nearly ground zero?"

Also, Every player jives a little differently. Cannonball jived differently compared to Trane, who played very differently compared to Miles ....Wayne Shorter...etc,etc.

Coltrane didn't sound like his influences because he took it to a NEW place. When I suggest this album, it's not because I think everyone should sound like the playing on it, but because the spirit on this album can inspire like a bastar(d), no matter what particular style you jive with.

Yeah but so can Kind of Blue. The feel on those old Benny Goodman records is much more dotted 8th and 16th and a young or budding jazz musician may develop an early gallop or choppyness to their playing by emulating that music. Nothing wrong with listening to CC but I wouldn't recommend it as the hallmark for someone learning to play with a swing feel.

For that, Basie and early Miles are king...