Resource Needed For Thumb vs. Pick

[Dave B]

A few of my younger rock guitar students have no interest in using a pick. One is a 7th grader who has played for two years, and the other is a 9th grader who's been playing about 6 months, and they use their thumb as the pick. There is no real attempt at any i, m, a, or RH pinky. They both are at about the same level technically, but the 7th grader has a bigger repertoire under his belt, and an extra method book. The 7th grader has started to use a pick for both strumming and playing surf-style riffage on the wound strings, and is beginning to get a little bit comfortable with it.

They both learned fairly quickly from method books, and can play some rock songs from magazine transcriptions. I lead them by ditching my pick, for the most part. But there are both the chordal and single-note areas that are just plain difficult for them (and myself) to do with just a thumb, both speed-wise and accuracy-wise (even when not in a fast area).

They are at the point now where I will not be able to push them any further without me using the pick. I'd hate to use my pick (and hybrid picking) and have them attempt the same things with their thumb and hope they get it without doing it myself - I don't think that would benefit them since I can't demonstrate it.

Are there any instructional books (or vids) available that detail using only your thumb in lieu of a pick, specifically for someone who wants to rock out?

[GBStratman]

On recommendations seen on TGP, I picked up Warren Haynes Hot Licks DVD. He does a lot of playing with his thumb, even when not using a slide. Sometimes he palms a pick which he pulls out for a different sound.

[Ken Ho]

You are really dealing wiht a case of the "I wants".. They want to do something , but are not willing to put in the hard yards to achieev it. From teh point of view of the younger one, I don't think there is a system to satisfy his desire for no system. The older one should be mature enough to accept that he is going to have to discipline himself to work at something that does not come easily, either using a pick, or a systemactic approach to finger-picking.
Either way, their freestyle approach to picking is something they kinda have to deal wiht themselves. I would dispute that you are leading them by ditching the pick. They are leading you, which may be part of the problem. Just as you should use correct chord names etc, instead of the "you know, finger in this position etc", if you actually lead them by using a system yourself, at some point the penny may drop that they need an prganised appraoch.
Ironicall, I know a guy who has a teacher who has refused to let him use a pick, after some years of lessons, and it has held him back immeasurably.

[TheBeerBaron]

Derek Trucks, Eric Johnson, Warren Haynes....among others, all play without a pick. I myself play without a pick. I feel more comfortable without one. I also like to incorporate each other finger on my right hand when plucking strings as well.

Many times I make a an impression between my index finger and thumb as if I am playing with a pick, but I am not.

I can use a pick, I just prefer the versatility of using each finger most of the time.

[re-animator]

Tell them to give thumb picks a whirl. After getting into some chet atkins i feel like the thumb pick opens up a lot of doors for rock players. Makes it a lot easier to do windmills too!

[armando]

Originally Posted by TheBeerBaron

Derek Trucks, Eric Johnson, Warren Haynes....among others, all play without a pick. I myself play without a pick. I feel more comfortable without one. I also like to incorporate each other finger on my right hand when plucking strings as well.

Many times I make a an impression between my index finger and thumb as if I am playing with a pick, but I am not.

I can use a pick, I just prefer the versatility of using each finger most of the time.

Eric Johnson uses a pick, but he does use hybrid picking

[Dave B]

Originally Posted by violetlove

You are really dealing wiht a case of the "I wants".. They want to do something , but are not willing to put in the hard yards to achieev it.

I believe we all want something musically, which is why we do what we do, be it student, teacher, hobbyist, weekend warrior, or pro/session player. We all work at various levels to achieve that. In my case, they came to me because they want to learn classic rock. Unfortunately, they are coming in from a slightly different technique angle that I'm not prepared or able to get them to the next level. If I woodshed, I believe I could help them a bit. But due to my nouveau situation, it would be nice to cull info from an outside source.

Originally Posted by violetlove

From teh point of view of the younger one, I don't think there is a system to satisfy his desire for no system. The older one should be mature enough to accept that he is going to have to discipline himself to work at something that does not come easily, either using a pick, or a systemactic approach to finger-picking.

Either way, their freestyle approach to picking is something they kinda have to deal wiht themselves.

Quite possibly they may have to go at this totally alone, armed with their inspiration and aspirations, but since we have a tremendous amount of diversity here on TGP, I was reaching out to see if anyone was aware of a method book or video that would assist these players in reaching their musical goals. Watching a video of Derek Trucks could be fun, inspiring, and educational for most of us, but being unstructured from an educational standpoint, I do not think going that route would benefit either of my students at this point.

A lot of professionals in all genres wound up overcoming many different stumbling blocks to get what they hear in their head with whatever technique is necessary (Albert King, Stanley Jordan, Mark Knopfler, ad nauseaum). No one ever told them to cease and desist in their pursuits. If they had run into that, most likely the guitar playing community, and musicians / musicianship in general, would be worse off.

Originally Posted by violetlove

Ironicall, I know a guy who has a teacher who has refused to let him use a pick, after some years of lessons, and it has held him back immeasurably.

It depends upon the goals of the player. Sounds like your friend's teacher could not help him in pointing him in the proper direction, so the teacher either should have passed him on to someone who could (but he didn't - Why not? Not altruistic enough - i.e., ego trip -, maybe selfish for the lesson fees, ???), or your friend (not knowing his age, experience, etc.) should have left on his own and sought out one who would mentor him properly towards his passion(s).

[GBStratman]

Seriously, the Warren Haynes Hot Licks DVD is good for this. More than any other artist video I've seen, Haynes really explains what he is doing and why he is doing it. He speaks a bit about right hand technique with and without pick.

On a related note, I just saw Joe Bonamassa the other night, and I was surprised at how little he uses a pick. I'd say about 2/3 of the songs were without a pick. But like Haynes, he keeps the pick in the crook of his index finger and shifts it out when doing fast licks, or for a different sound. Lately I've been noticing a lot of artists doing this (John Mayer too, I think). It's been making me rethink my reliance on a pick.

I've started to practice this, but apart from not being very good at finger style, it's a bit tricky to keep a pick somewhere in the right hand. I found that between index and ring fingers works well. Anyone else doing this?

[Tone_Terrific]

Originally Posted by Dave B

There is no real attempt at any i, m, a, or RH pinky.

Seems like some of the replies failed to note this fact.
The thumb, only, seems like the wrong tool for the job unless one is determined to develop one's own style, not copy rock technique.

[doc]

If you can turn 'em on to jazz, its a natural for Wes Montgomery stuff. I think Adrian Ingram recently released an instructional DVD on Wes' style. You could play other styles this way, but I don't know anyone who does off the top of my head.

[armando]

If you can convince them to incorporate one other finger with the thumb, say index or middle, then they can develop their picking to a high degree. Thumb can be for downstrokes, and index or middle for upstrokes. If you need an example of this, listen to Kevin Eubanks who uses thumb and middle exclusively.

[Ken Ho]

Originally Posted by Dave B

I believe we all want something musically, which is why we do what we do, be it student, teacher, hobbyist, weekend warrior, or pro/session player. We all work at various levels to achieve that. In my case, they came to me because they want to learn classic rock. Unfortunately, they are coming in from a slightly different technique angle that I'm not prepared or able to get them to the next level. If I woodshed, I believe I could help them a bit. But due to my nouveau situation, it would be nice to cull info from an outside source.



Quite possibly they may have to go at this totally alone, armed with their inspiration and aspirations, but since we have a tremendous amount of diversity here on TGP, I was reaching out to see if anyone was aware of a method book or video that would assist these players in reaching their musical goals. Watching a video of Derek Trucks could be fun, inspiring, and educational for most of us, but being unstructured from an educational standpoint, I do not think going that route would benefit either of my students at this point.

A lot of professionals in all genres wound up overcoming many different stumbling blocks to get what they hear in their head with whatever technique is necessary (Albert King, Stanley Jordan, Mark Knopfler, ad nauseaum). No one ever told them to cease and desist in their pursuits. If they had run into that, most likely the guitar playing community, and musicians / musicianship in general, would be worse off.



It depends upon the goals of the player. Sounds like your friend's teacher could not help him in pointing him in the proper direction, so the teacher either should have passed him on to someone who could (but he didn't - Why not? Not altruistic enough - i.e., ego trip -, maybe selfish for the lesson fees, ???), or your friend (not knowing his age, experience, etc.) should have left on his own and sought out one who would mentor him properly towards his passion(s).

My interpretation of your OP , was that these kids were trying to do something, but were not gettign sufficiently organised to achieve what they wanted to.
I'm not the slightest bit negative about fingerstlye vs pick or people not heading in the musical direction of their choice. On the contrary, I am a liberal inclusionist who despises purists in any form.
That said, "I want" vs "I have a plan" is a big difference. What I was suggesting, is that the young kid is a a great stage to just have fun, whether or not his technique or lack theereof is holding him back, and the older kid would benefit from more clearly defining his goals and pursuing a plan to achieve them, even if it's harder work. Letting what's easy define your technique is not always helpful in the long run, regardless of the discipline. I've certainly benefitted from making myself do things the "right" way many times, when my natural instincts were to do something less helpful.
As to my mate, what really bugged me, was that he would come to me to teach him things his teacher would not. He's quite happy though. He is quite comfortable with a ten year plan to master the instrument through a purist approach. I stopped teaching him, though, because I resented giving free lessons on what HE really wanted to learn, while he paid the other guy to hold him back.