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Old 09-27-2008, 11:58 AM
kldonegan kldonegan is offline
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Stick a Dummy Plug in your DL-4 (little clippage added on the 4th page)

I had a nice little chat with Rich Renken, the product manager for the M13 who posts here, and he was kind enough to shed some more light on this, and clarify some of my fuzzy details! (last page of this thread). I've copied his info into my first post:


I know it is an old thread, but I wanted to clarify. I am the Product Manager for the M13 and the 4 buttons now that Mr. Huge is gone.

The two outputs are not out of phase. There are some chorusy-phasers that were added to the model when the unit is being used in stereo that "push" the delays around giving you a greater "stereoized" effect. In stereo you don't hear the chorusy-phasers. When they collapse from stereo to mono, it is very subtle but that is the weird phasey thing that guys have complained about especially on the DMM.

Also, yes, some guys like it as is, no prob. I just wanted guys to have the choice.


And...


The reason no one at Line 6 mentioned this is that no one discovered what was causing the phasing until I was beta testing the M13. I had an M13 bug where the MM4 sounds were collapsing stereo to mono. This of course sounds terrible because the mods phase out. I wasn't noticing this because I was running my M13 in stereo and the guys told me that the MM4 sounded terrible. I put my M13 in mono, and it sounded terrible. So to compare the MM4 unit to the MM4 models in the M13 in mono, I shut off one of the amps I was plugged into and thought, I could tell my beta guys to put in the dummy plug and check the MM4 sounds in M13. I was fixing the bug, but I didn't want to wait another day for the beta guys to check out the sounds of the MM4 in M13. Well, the next day I got two emails from guys asking me, "When did you fix the Analog w/mod?" I was confused and told them I didn't. They said it was fixed. It then dawned on me. I plugged in my M13 and put it on Analog w/mod and played it. Sounded like a DL4. I then put in a dummy plug and BAM, it sounded like the DMM.

So it was a small bug that no one found since it came out. It wasn't a major problem. In fact, as you see in this thread, some guys like it better without the dummy plug. It may not be as close to a DMM but it has its own uses.

So I told a few of my buddies who told their buddies and so on. I just wanted to clear up the history.

Peace, Rich





ORIGINAL POST STARTS HERE:

So...

A friend of mine was a beta tester for the M13. He was doing some tracking with it the other day and the engineer remarked at how much better some of the delay patches sounded, specifically the Memory Man. Beta tester buddy tells him that the two outputs on the DL-4 are out of phase (hence the "phasey" quality on the DMM patch) and tells him to hook up the DL-4 like normal and then pop a dummy plug into the other output. Engineer buddy passes this info on to me. I just tried it, and it's significantly different.

Do it this way:

- Hook up your DL-4 like normal - mono in and out
- Dial up the Analog w/ mod sound and get something going with some modulation on the sound.
- Play with it for a minute and then pop in that dummy plug (I used a GL end, since I had it lying around).

I haven't had a chance to play with all of the models yet, and I know that it's likely to mess up one or two of the patches that would sweep side to side if it were in true stereo (I'm not really using those, though). Give it a try and report back!


clips on the 4th page
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Last edited by kldonegan; 04-04-2009 at 09:03 AM. Reason: Added info from Rich
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  #2  
Old 09-27-2008, 12:00 PM
GuitarDude GuitarDude is offline
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i might just try that at soundcheck tonight and see what happens. i've had some problems with its sounds lately, maybe this will help?
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Old 09-27-2008, 01:34 PM
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starfish starfish is offline
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I no longer have a DL-4, but it sounds like the summed stereo-->mono signal has phase cancellation. By putting a plug or any patch cable into the other output you are going to true mono operation where each channel is sent to a different output instead of summed.
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Old 09-27-2008, 01:44 PM
The P-Man The P-Man is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kldonegan View Post
So...

A friend of mine was a beta tester for the M13. He was doing some tracking with it the other day and the engineer remarked at how much better some of the delay patches sounded, specifically the Memory Man. Beta tester buddy tells him that the two outputs on the DL-4 are out of phase (hence the "phasey" quality on the DMM patch) and tells him to hook up the DL-4 like normal and then pop a dummy plug into the other output. Engineer buddy passes this info on to me. I just tried it, and it's significantly different.

Do it this way:

- Hook up your DL-4 like normal - mono in and out
- Dial up the Analog w/ mod sound and get something going with some modulation on the sound.
- Play with it for a minute and then pop in that dummy plug (I used a GL end, since I had it lying around).

I haven't had a chance to play with all of the models yet, and I know that it's likely to mess up one or two of the patches that would sweep side to side if it were in true stereo (I'm not really using those, though). Give it a try and report back!
Just tried it - a significant improvement to my ears. I love the DL-4 for it's versatility and that tip has gone a long way to improving the sound!!!

Thanks
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Old 09-27-2008, 05:43 PM
kldonegan kldonegan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starfish View Post
I no longer have a DL-4, but it sounds like the summed stereo-->mono signal has phase cancellation. By putting a plug or any patch cable into the other output you are going to true mono operation where each channel is sent to a different output instead of summed.
I think this is pretty much what the deal is; I just ran through all the models to hear what it does. The tube/tape delays, lo res, analog, etc. aren't adversely effected by this dummy plug thing. The Analog w/ Mod and the Digital w/ mod both sounded MUCH better. You do, in fact, lose the summed stereo effect of the Stereo patch and the Ping-pong delay patch. So, if you use those two a ton you should stay away from this. I'll be dummy-plugging now, for sure.

The DMM patch never actually sounded like a DMM... now it sounds much closer. I'm using that patch for the chorus side of a DMM and my real one for the ambient vibrato wash thing. YAY!
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  #6  
Old 09-28-2008, 03:50 AM
The P-Man The P-Man is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kldonegan View Post
I think this is pretty much what the deal is; I just ran through all the models to hear what it does. The tube/tape delays, lo res, analog, etc. aren't adversely effected by this dummy plug thing. The Analog w/ Mod and the Digital w/ mod both sounded MUCH better. You do, in fact, lose the summed stereo effect of the Stereo patch and the Ping-pong delay patch. So, if you use those two a ton you should stay away from this. I'll be dummy-plugging now, for sure.

The DMM patch never actually sounded like a DMM... now it sounds much closer. I'm using that patch for the chorus side of a DMM and my real one for the ambient vibrato wash thing. YAY!

One additional thing I've noticed - I use the Analog with mod setting for faux-Leslie sounds - with the dummy plug in, I can't replicate this setting at all. But the DMM sounds are still much better!
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Old 09-28-2008, 08:48 AM
kldonegan kldonegan is offline
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Yeah... It all depends on how you're using it. Some people will dig it and it'll probably mess things up for some folks.
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Old 09-28-2008, 04:21 PM
Tardy Tardy is offline
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I just recently found out about this trick as well. It is such an improvement. So, SO much better. It's bizarre to me that Line6 has never mentioned this in the product literature or on the website. That weird modulation on both the analog and digital setting, has been an issue with a lot of people since the DL4's release about 9 years ago. You would think at some point, somebody would have dropped in on a message board forum like this one and offered up this little fix. Or maybe just revised the manual to include a little paragraph listing the models that could benefit from the use of a dummy plug, and those that don't. Weird.

Maybe since the DL4 has obviously been such a phenomenal success for the company, there just hasn't been sufficient motivation to fix something that ain't broke, so to speak. But I tell ya, that modulation always sounded "broke" to me, and the dummy plug fix absolutely corrects it.
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Old 09-28-2008, 04:39 PM
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Dexter.Sinister Dexter.Sinister is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kldonegan View Post
So...

A friend of mine was a beta tester for the M13. He was doing some tracking with it the other day and the engineer remarked at how much better some of the delay patches sounded, specifically the Memory Man. Beta tester buddy tells him that the two outputs on the DL-4 are out of phase (hence the "phasey" quality on the DMM patch) and tells him to hook up the DL-4 like normal and then pop a dummy plug into the other output. Engineer buddy passes this info on to me. I just tried it, and it's significantly different.

Do it this way:

- Hook up your DL-4 like normal - mono in and out
- Dial up the Analog w/ mod sound and get something going with some modulation on the sound.
- Play with it for a minute and then pop in that dummy plug (I used a GL end, since I had it lying around).

I haven't had a chance to play with all of the models yet, and I know that it's likely to mess up one or two of the patches that would sweep side to side if it were in true stereo (I'm not really using those, though). Give it a try and report back!
Ok, I tried and it was modest to significant improvement for each patches I use in my band. Thank you very much for tip. I will pass along it to my neighbors.

Thank you.

DS
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Old 09-28-2008, 04:45 PM
Axekisser Axekisser is offline
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I use mine in a stereo set-up but just pull the "mono" side when using one amp and notice the same thing. I love the DL-4 and perhaps it's because I've been using the dummy plug/stereo thing since I got it.
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  #11  
Old 09-28-2008, 04:56 PM
Ghost219 Ghost219 is offline
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you say this is really helpful on the digital setting?
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Old 09-28-2008, 05:22 PM
High Voltage High Voltage is offline
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Would this work for the DD-20 as well?
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Old 09-28-2008, 06:51 PM
Mincer Mincer is offline
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i kinda like that phasy sound..i miss it on the M13....
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Old 09-28-2008, 09:23 PM
sunken.anchor sunken.anchor is offline
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Dude! My biggest complaint with the DL-4 was the phasey modulation on the DMM setting. I can't wait to try it out. I wonder if it would also work on the auto-volume setting (where the phasey modulation gets annoying)...
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Old 09-28-2008, 10:26 PM
stephen_b stephen_b is offline
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Originally Posted by High Voltage View Post
Would this work for the DD-20 as well?
totally different beast... you could try it, but i wouldn't hold my breath.
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