Gain level of Mics matching gain of Mic Pres - how important?

[RockStarNick]

OK.

Lets say you have a mic with -69db Gain level. (for example, my new Shure SM7b)

And you have the Presonus Eureka with 52db of available input gain.

Would it be THAT bad if you used the output level Fader (-70db up to +10db) on the Eureka to make up for the lack of gain on the front end? Or, just adjust the trim on the input of the Mbox?

I feel like that is really frowned upon. But why?

[Sunbreak Music]

Originally Posted by RockStarNick

OK.

Lets say you have a mic with -69db Gain level. (for example, my new Shure SM7b)

And you have the Presonus Eureka with 52db of available input gain.

Would it be THAT bad if you used the output level Fader (-70db up to +10db) on the Eureka to make up for the lack of gain on the front end? Or, just adjust the trim on the input of the Mbox?

I feel like that is really frowned upon. But why?

Overdriving the pre will cause distortion that can't be corrected later down the road. I think you're better off just recording within "spec" and adding gain in your daw--I think people are getting decent results that way. Better that that have a nice hot signal that's beyond the useable headroom of the pre...and makes your ears bleed (in a bad way).

It's not necessary to go hot into your DAW these days.

[RockStarNick]

Cool... yeah I guess the trim on the DAW is there for a reason.

I've just heard over and over again "that SM7 needs a sh*t ton of gain, needs a hot preamp, etc, etc..." and a lot of the ones that I'm looking at don't have 70+ db of gain on the front end.

I've talked to a friend thogh, who said that 52db would be enough to get a good hot signal.

[Sunbreak Music]

Originally Posted by RockStarNick

Cool... yeah I guess the trim on the DAW is there for a reason.

I've just heard over and over again "that SM7 needs a sh*t ton of gain, needs a hot preamp, etc, etc..." and a lot of the ones that I'm looking at don't have 70+ db of gain on the front end.

I've talked to a friend thogh, who said that 52db would be enough to get a good hot signal.

I hear the same thing about various pieces of gear....and then try some things myself. Results will sometimes differ... :AOK

[elambo]

Trim INSIDE the DAW is only in the digital domain and won't affect the integrity or character of your mic or pre. It won't add or attenuate analog gain, which is what you're worried about.

And there are no set rules about mic & preamp gain, and in fact offers one important way of changing the character of your tone. Drive the input of the pre heavily, then lower the output of the pre going into your recorder and you'll notice a heavier (albeit more distorted) sound. I use this a lot for bass to thicken the tone. It also works well for vocals and electric guitar. Vice versa will clean up the tone. Gain structure is an art in and of itself.

As Cass said, experimentation is important. And a full signal into your DAW is not only unnecessary, but a bad idea. It saves no room for eq or other processing, and you're almost guaranteed to turn it down anyway in the midst of a mix.

[KennyM]

As always general rule of thumb is that if it sounds good it is good. I wouldn't worry at all about a mic pre having enough gain for a dynamic mic such as the SM7. With the exception of using some ribbon mics I don't think anyone is manufacturing a mic pre that is not capable of enough gain.

The more important thing to take note of is how hot you're printing your signals to tape (hard drive). When you are recording in a DAW as close to the red overload led as possible, it may fool you into believing that your mic pre doesn't have enough gain. This is not actually the case. If you look at the range that your basic vintage Neve or API mic pre was designed to operate in you will find that it takes a lot more gain to hit digital zero as compared to 0 vu on a tape machine. This could actually be 12 to 18 more db depending on how your digital system is calibrated.

The true sweet sound of these mic pre's in my opinion was in operating them in the range that they were designed to be operated in, which was calibrated to the tape machines vu meter. In other words, most mic pre's sound the best when they are hitting your DAW's meters at a much lower level than just under that red digital zero led.

I try to leave about 6db of headroom when I'm recording into my Pro Tools rig. Since I started doing this my projects have much more punch and depth. You don't need as much gain out of your mic pre's as you might think.

[RockStarNick]

Great responses guys! thanks so much... I think I'll be safe with my preamp purchase. I know the Eureka isn't a $1K unit, but I got a killer deal on a B stock one. It's sure a step up from my Tube PAC.

[meterman]

FWIW the FMR RNP has 66 db of gain, two channels for $500, and is generally considered a good bang for the buck. I've got one and like it but haven't had the opportunity to compare it to anything else...with certain mics (57 for example) I do find I have to crank the gain up a good bit to get a hot signal, I think the issue may be more about adding noise from a cheap preamp running flat out. Better to have some headroom I think...and really it's when recording vocals, micing amps is plenty loud but if you have a softer singer you've got to crank the gain to get a good level. I add a compressor set lightly as well....

good thread, I'm getting an SM7b soon too

[kludge]

How much gain is required also depends on how loud your source is.

And I'll give a huge +1 to the RNP. One of the best investments I ever made in home recording. I'd been using a M-Audio DMP3 (a well-regarded budget preamp), but the RNP blows it away! I hate to get anyone near the whole preamp cork-sniffing thing (worse than TGP, almost as bad as camera buffs), but the RNP is an excellent investment in sound quality and will get much more out of your existing mics.

[KennyM]

I've never heard the RNP but have heard the compressor they make and their reputation for great gear at a smaller price point is pretty well known.

I think the best bang for the buck mic pre is the API from Brent Averill. This only makes sense if you have future plans for picking up more mic pre's as it involves initially spending an extra $400 to $900 to pick up a lunchbox or rack to house the modules. After that it's just $600 or so to add another stellar channel. This is also a good way to go because there are a lot of other mic pre's, eq's and compressors that can work in those racks too.

As far as lower costing mic pre's, one of my sales guys I deal with who is extremely knowledgeable speaks very highly of the Presonus mic pre's as the best of the bunch at that price arena. I would put a lot of value in that statement because he knows that I have 10 channels of high end mic pre's and would never be intrested in buying the Presonus so he's not trying to sell me anything with his statements. If I was looking at putting a lower cost setup I would get the Presonus Digimax96.

[RockStarNick]

I figured the presonus, for me, was a good way to go because:

A. CAme highly reccomended by a friend of mine who owns a studio. And I like what he's done and trust his ears.

B. I got a killer deal on a B stock full warrantee unit. Almost 40% off regular street price ($375 instead of $600).

C. I already have a Presonus Firebox 8 channel input interface, that I, um, uh, aquired from my place of occupation... they bought it for a project, and told me to take it home and try it out. The project fell thru, and my IT buddy said "yeah, that thing is so far off the radar now..." :-)

[Bryan T]

Originally Posted by kludge

How much gain is required also depends on how loud your source is.

Yes. Additionally, some preamps don't sound very good when you really push the gain. They can get quite a bit noisier, for example.

I recorded a singer/songwriter friend who played guitar and sang at the same time. I used an SM7 on the vocals. The biggest problem I ran into was that I couldn't get as much gain from my Digi002 preamps as I wanted without them getting noisy. In that case, a better preamp would have resulted in a much better recording.

Bryan

[MichaelK]

Originally Posted by Sunbreak Music

It's not necessary to go hot into your DAW these days.

I agree. It's pretty easy to beef up a quiet track, impossible to take out the sound of an topped-out preamp or A/D converter. I don't always hear it while tracking; I sometimes don't notice until mixing/editing. That's quite frustrating, so I try to avoid surprises by steering clear of hot-hot preamp levels.