Pickups - could "microphonic" be a GOOD characteristic?

[Stratman76]

I've been researching again...

This started as a quest to determine how much body and neck wood type (et al) affected solidbody guitar tone.

If electromagnetic pickups are designed to "read" metal string vibration within their magnetic field, I wondered if there was anything guitar neck and body material could impart on string vibration that would translate into a tone/aurel color element. Per my father-in-law, who is a retired physics teacher and wrote a book on acoustics in musical instruments, the answer is "very little." Please note, this is not to say anything about the duration of the string vibration. Bridge, nut, pup distance to string, body wood, neck wood (and more) all contribute to dampen string vibration.

But...

While everything counts, I know that wood can especially make a difference in solidbody guitar tone. How? And how much?

I think this lies in the microphonic aspect of a guitars' pickups. In other words, the more microphonic a pickup is, the more wood vibration tone it will receive and thereby deliver as part of the signal. Hey, I know all about high-gain squeal and have avoided more microphonic pickups. What do you think about this? And then what about wax potting pickups?

[RectoGriz]

Lollar says he likes a little in his.

[big mike]

Yes. It can and is a good thing for me, especially on a tele.

[Steven_K]

I think the Fralins in my strat are slightly microphonic, especially the bridge. It sequels with too much gain gain. But they sound freekin' awesome with slightly broken up distortion - all these rich higher overtones.

[brad347]

I like microphonic pickups and I like microphonic tubes. If I can use them in my application without squeal or adverse effects, then it's not too microphonic for me.

But with regards to the original question, the impact of a guitar's body woods is bigger than your father-in-law thinks. It has more to do with how the body and neck interact with the string at the points of contact. Play a fully hollow L-5CES through a cranked marshall and you'll see what I'm talking about. It sounds and behaves very differently from a Les Paul with the same pickups. That is an extreme case, one being hollow and one being solid, but it is a testament to the fact that there is more than just the electromagnetic induction at work.

[MartinC]

Originally Posted by Stratman76

I've been researching again...

This started as a quest to determine how much body and neck wood type (et al) affected solidbody guitar tone.

If electromagnetic pickups are designed to "read" metal string vibration within their magnetic field, I wondered if there was anything guitar neck and body material could impart on string vibration that would translate into a tone/aurel color element. Per my father-in-law, who is a retired physics teacher and wrote a book on acoustics in musical instruments, the answer is "very little." Please note, this is not to say anything about the duration of the string vibration. Bridge, nut, pup distance to string, body wood, neck wood (and more) all contribute to dampen string vibration.

But...

While everything counts, I know that wood can especially make a difference in solidbody guitar tone. How? And how much?

I think this lies in the microphonic aspect of a guitars' pickups. In other words, the more microphonic a pickup is, the more wood vibration tone it will receive and thereby deliver as part of the signal. Hey, I know all about high-gain squeal and have avoided more microphonic pickups. What do you think about this? And then what about wax potting pickups?

Very interesting question ... about which I know nothing, but I'm keen to read what others have to say. I did read another thread on here a while back in a similar vein in which somebody claimed that wood would impact upon tone because different woods (or other materials) would dampen a range of frequencies in different ways ... I could believe that, but I don't think any evidence was available in that thread.

[Stratman76]

Originally Posted by brad347

I like microphonic pickups and I like microphonic tubes. If I can use them in my application without squeal or adverse effects, then it's not too microphonic for me.

But with regards to the original question, the impact of a guitar's body woods is bigger than your father-in-law thinks. It has more to do with how the body and neck interact with the string at the points of contact. Play a fully hollow L-5CES through a cranked marshall and you'll see what I'm talking about. It sounds and behaves very differently from a Les Paul with the same pickups. That is an extreme case, one being hollow and one being solid, but it is a testament to the fact that there is more than just the electromagnetic induction at work.

Interesting... But I would still say your hollow body is more resonant and therefore generates MORE (louder) wood tone to be received by the microphonic aspect of an electromagnetic pickup.

Strats would be a good test base for this because it's so easy to replace pickguards which contain pickups, caps, pots and most of the wiring.

[bluesmeanie]

Neil Young claims that an integral part of his sound is due to a microphonic pickup in that beatup old Les Paul that he plays, you know the one.

[trisonic]

I've got a Tele you can talk into - if you've a mind to that is.........
Sounds great (when used normally).

Best, Pete.

PS Did I tell you I detest "potted" pick ups?

[84Bravo]

Roy Buchanan's famous "Nancy" had a famously microphonic back pickup that can be heard squealing on the Live Stock album. If that guitar doesn't define, tone, I don't know what does.

[brad347]

Originally Posted by Stratman76

Interesting... But I would still say your hollow body is more resonant and therefore generates MORE (louder) wood tone to be received by the microphonic aspect of an electromagnetic pickup.

Strats would be a good test base for this because it's so easy to replace pickguards which contain pickups, caps, pots and most of the wiring.

Take a pickup and pot it in epoxy and it will have no microphony. It will still behave differently and sound differently in an L5 versus a Les Paul.

My point is not even as much one of tone but one of resonant feedback.

The resonant, hollow body of the L5 will cause an abundance of resonant feedback as the body's vibrations sustain the vibration of the strings. So much so that at high volumes and high distortion levels, it will be very hard to control. This is the most exaggerated example I can think of of a vibrating string's sound being "informed" by the wood to which it is attached.

On a smaller scale, the same thing happens with a more resonant solid body versus a stiffer solid body (say, plywood or baseball bat ash). The construction, material, and even shape of the body and neck can all affect the way the string vibrates.

If a body has a certain resonant frequency 'fingerprint,' then the instrument will contain formants at the wood's resonant frequencies, as those frequencies will be reinforced by constructive interference when they appear as partial frequencies of the notes sounded on the strings.

Likewise, the formants resulting from the body's resonant frequency 'fingerprint' can destructively interfere with frequencies that are close, but not identical-- mitigating those frequencies' prominence in the instrument's overall tonal signature.

Different solidbody guitars will sound differently when played unplugged. You are not hearing a ton of the body's vibration unless your ear is directly on the body--maybe a little. Most of what you are hearing is vibration directly off the strings. The main differences you hear acoustically are likely a result of the manner in which the body affects the strings.

Plug it in, and I do believe that microphony of pickups can come into play somewhat in the overall output signal, especially if they are hard-mounted to the body (like a dog-ear P90) as opposed to suspension-mounted like a Strat pickup or Gibson humbucker.

But I contend that a pickup need not be microphonic in order for body wood of a guitar to have a very real impact on the guitar's plugged-in sound.

[mccreadyisgod]

Originally Posted by brad347

Take a pickup and pot it in epoxy and it will have no microphony. It will still behave differently and sound differently in an L5 versus a Les Paul.

Microphony can be helpful, so long as it's controlled and in a useful frequency range. Some pickups develop microphony in one specific frequency, and that's when they start to squeal and feedback like a mic shoved into a monitor.

When I read the subject of the thread, but before I read the actual substance of the posts, I was thinking of Thurston Moore and his annoyingly microphonic pickups that he does some awesome noise effects with. I actually sold a friend of mine a really terribly microphonic Epiphone pickup a few years ago so he could use it almost like a microphone. I don't think he's actually done anything with it yet... he does sing into a guitar that has microphonic pickups, though. And I've seen lots of other musicians do the same.

[brad347]

Something else to chew on: There is no such thing as the "right" amount of microphony.

There are pickups in some of my guitars that sound awesome for a lot of what I use them for, but would be unusable to a high-gain high-volume metal player.

As to the poster above, the squeal "at a specific frequency" results from microphonic feedback, much like sticking a microphone in front of a speaker to which it is connected through an amplifier.

If the pickup is functioning as a crude microphone, the main variable is "how sensitive is that unintentional microphone." The frequency of the feedback squeal, as far as I know is most likely primarily determined by external variables like distance, resonant frequencies of speakers, amp, guitar, room, etc. But I suppose a pickup itself could have a resonant frequency that contributes.

Also for the record, pickups and tubes are not the only things in your guitar rig that can be microphonic. Anything that can cause some sort of variable electrical response in proportion to mechanical movement/vibration can exhibit microphonic behavior. In rare cases I've even heard of intermittent/bad solder joints exhibiting crude microphonic behavior. Capacitors can certainly be microphonic. In fact, a condenser microphone IS nothing more than a capacitor that is specifically designed to be as microphonic as possible (hence the name-- "condenser" is the old-school term for "capacitor," and you will often hear them referred to as "capacitor microphones.")

[HHB]

my 58 LPjr says YES!

[ugacrow]

If you really want to get the "ahhhhhs" to sound right when playing a cover of Octupus' Garden, then you'd better have microphonic pickups so you can sing into 'em!