I realized that you can't really play good without imitation.

[rich2k4]

at least in my case. I'm really lazy when it comes to transcribing. especially when it comes to a blues tune with pentatonic licks. I always listen to it and say "all the person is doing is pentatonic stuff, i can do that, that's easy"

The problem, is that when I play, it never sounds as great and doesn't flow as well as the person in the tune, whether it is SRV, or Matt Scofield, etc

This just made me realize that it's best to transcribe all of their licks, and then branch out from there with your own stuff. Trying to do everything from scratch, and making up your own licks with no references just does not work for me.

I hope that's easy to understand, i don't even know if this thread has a point to it, haha

[robelinda2]

I agree 100%! Just because i transcribe a Jeff Beck tune doesnt mean i'm going to sound like him.

[Swain]

Well, I bet every player you mentioned did the exact same thing. I think you're exactly right.
Sure, there are those truly original artists. Right out of the gate. But, I think 99% of people need to learn from what has become before.

[russ6100]

You'll get out of it what you put into it.
:AOK

[Ooogie]

I agree completely. A lot of it might just be pentatonic stuff but you really need to transcribe it to pick up their phrasing and see how they use voice leading, turnarounds and those other nuances that take it beyond wankery...

Mark

[JonR]

Agreed. It might sound like a contradiction, but you have to copy in order to become original.
You copy great players to pick up their phrasing ideas (not the scales they use, which are the same as what everyone uses).
Then you remember and keep the particular ideas you like, that stand out for you.
The more players you copy, the more you build a personal database of favourite licks that will be different from anyone else's database - because no one will copy quite the same mix of players or the same favourite licks as you will.
That - translated through the inevitable accidental playing quirks of your own technique - then becomes your "original" sound.

[GuitarsFromMars]

Um,let's start with imitation being the sincerest form of flattery.

[mikefair]

Been playing a lot - bands, recordings, sessions, jamming - for the past 15 years and still trying to figure out how the greats connect soloing ideas. I have a friend that says, if you borrow from one source, it's plagarism; if you borrow from 2 or more, it's research.

[jzucker]

this is pretty much what I was saying when I got flamed last month. I guess it's all in the delivery.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by mikefair

I have a friend that says, if you borrow from one source, it's plagarism; if you borrow from 2 or more, it's research.

Precisely - exactly what I was saying above (but in a neater aphoristic phrase).

[JonR]

Originally Posted by jzucker

this is pretty much what I was saying when I got flamed last month.

Right. Great minds think alike. Because they rip each other off (or they're just stating the bleeding obvious) .
Our opinions are great, because we're recycling the great opinions of others before us...


Great ideas get flamed to begin with, because they're misunderstood, or ahead of their time. But then people think about them a bit..... and then realise, "hmm, actually that's right! I think I'll have that idea myself now..."

[Daniel-San]

Yep...I guess everybody needs to copy stuff of their "heroes". You'll hear that the "hero" did the same thing....etc...

I guess it's necessary to first take licks, phrases or certain not so obvious notes in a song from others to find your own style. I still play along to loads of cd's and pick up a lot of licks from that...especially from live recordings.

[Jon]

Even the greatest orators in history learned to speak by copying other people - this imitation is how humans learn, whether adults or children. The stuff that you learn from other people is the foundation on which you build your own style. I can't imagine anyone being able to improvise at a high level without going through this process of learning other people's music and licks. It's what you do with it once you've learned it that makes the difference - you can't reject clichés unless you have a pretty good understanding of what they are to begin with.

[supahsekzy]

plus, as time goes on it becomes that much harder to truly do something that hasn't already been done before...

[KRosser]

There's a lot of invaluable stuff you can learn from imitation, definitely.

But - some people will learn those things and some people will just imitate. It has everything to do with the driver and little to do with the road taken.

Jim Hall told me he never did it. I believe him. Dave Liebman told me he did it a lot. I believe him too. They're both two of the most original voices around.