Muffled recorded sound - clock issue?

[Disco Cat]

Hi, I've been struggling with this issue for a couple years now, buying expensive gear without hearing any improvement.

My recorded sound does not sound up to par. The distorted sound is especially unusable to me, everything sounds muffled.

My preamp is an API a2d, and my mics are an sm57 and an AKG 414b XLS, used in stereo. Audio clips of the best sound quality I can achieve are here. The signal runs into my Xi-Fi Auzentech Prelude soundcard via SPDIF.

My latest thought is that it could be a word clock issue. However, Cubase, the DAW I use, won't let me select anything but "Internal," so right now, Cubase and the a2d are both using their internal clocks:



The Control Panel button also doesn't give me an External option:



These are the tabs for my soundcard's control panel. The a2d is connected via spdif, however, it shows up as Digital-In within the control panel and also within Cubase:





Interestingly, I was using an m-audio mobile-pre usb interface prior to the API, and it didn't suffer from the stuffy, muffled sound that I'm getting from the API. That a $2000 preamp isn't giving me better results than a $180 preamp is frustrating
But what is also interesting, is that I had the same "muffled," low-quality sound issue when I was running my 7th Circle A12 and N72 preamps into the line-in of the Mobile-Pre. I would have thought that if it were a word clock issue, yet the Mobile-pre was able to give me a clear sound when using its own preamps, that I would also get a clear sound when using its line-in for the DA conversion.

Assistance is very appreciated, thanks.

[Sunbreak Music]

What is an "Autzentech"? Is it the German version of a soundblaster? Some of those tabs gave me the heebie jeebies. ;-)

I listened to the clip, and the first thing I said to myself was "THIS IS TOO F'ING LOUD!!", lol. I don't know how the A/D converters on the pre, but you're peaking at close to 0dBFS, which I wouldn't call a "best practice" for recording. I'd drop the level about 10dB when tracking. Any mic pre will have only so much headroom before it starts distorting and slowly turning everything into a square wave.

I didn't hear anything that sounded like a clocking problem to my ears, but you sure don't want digital devices running on their internal clocks.

[Disco Cat]

Hey there, Auzentech is a soundcard that uses the soundblaster Xi-Fi chip. Overall, they are way better cards than Soundblasters, and Auzentech apparently has excellent customer service, while Creative, who makes Soundblaster, has none. Well, they have some, but they don't do anything for you, but send you in loops, and try to get you to buy more Creative products. Creative is a scum company who build intentionally poor drivers and limit their devices so that people need to keep buying new versions. True fact.

The Auzentech Prelude that I have is 24/96khz, and has coaxial/optical SPDIF in/out. I chose it because I didn't need an interface with converters or preamps, just the 24/96 and spdif in.

I recorded at that loud level because anything less and the audio seems way too quite to work with in Cubase, and also, when I export it, it's extremely quiet in comparison to other audio files on my computer. The API is supposedly best when pushed into the red on the LED display. In the case of those files, I also augmented their volume in Cubase so that they'd be on par with the typical mp3 volume.

That's too bad that you didn't hear a clocking issue, because that leaves me clueless as to why I'm getting such a muffled sound, while people using the same preamp claim to get vastly superior recordings, and people with inferior hardware are also posting vastly superior sounding clips.

[Sunbreak Music]

Originally Posted by Disco Cat

Hey there, Auzentech is a soundcard that uses the soundblaster Xi-Fi chip. Overall, they are way better cards than Soundblasters, and Auzentech apparently has excellent customer service, while Creative, who makes Soundblaster, has none. Well, they have some, but they don't do anything for you, but send you in loops, and try to get you to buy more Creative products. Creative is a scum company who build intentionally poor drivers and limit their devices so that people need to keep buying new versions. True fact.

The Auzentech Prelude that I have is 24/96khz, and has coaxial/optical SPDIF in/out. I chose it because I didn't need an interface with converters or preamps, just the 24/96 and spdif in.

I recorded at that loud level because anything less and the audio seems way too quite to work with in Cubase, and also, when I export it, it's extremely quiet in comparison to other audio files on my computer. The API is supposedly best when pushed into the red on the LED display. In the case of those files, I also augmented their volume in Cubase so that they'd be on par with the typical mp3 volume.

That's too bad that you didn't hear a clocking issue, because that leaves me clueless as to why I'm getting such a muffled sound, while people using the same preamp claim to get vastly superior recordings, and people with inferior hardware are also posting vastly superior sounding clips.

First...on the loudness.... It doesn't really matter what other people tell me about gear--I'll decide what sounds best. There is more misinformation on audio recording going around than I've ever seen, and it keeps getting worse. "Pushing" a pre that's solid state hasn't ever given me anything I liked--but let's start there. "Red" doesn't mean anything to me--it must be referenced to a particular measurement, and that will tell you a lot about where your signal is and should be. Also--is that a peak measurement or an RMS? Big difference.

Second...what does it sound like when you track with one mic? Stereo mic'ing probably isn't the best way to troubleshoot--lots of variables in there. Try tracking at a lower level and with one of the mics and see how it sounds.

I assure you the audio tracked at a lower level isn't "too quiet" to work with in Cubase. I've been tracking all week long and I think my hottest signal peaked at -10dBFS. It is entirely possible to build a nice mix with tracks at that level. Commercial recordings have been "mastered" to be loud, and shouldn't be a concern as far as comparison goes at this stage.

Hope some of this is helping.

[Rosecutions]

Clocking errors usually results in clicks and pops. This to me sounds like unflattering mic positioning and pushing the level too hard. Flabby and muffled should be the last things associated with API unless the original source is sludgy as all getout.

[loudboy]

Originally Posted by Sunbreak Music

"Pushing" a pre that's solid state hasn't ever given me anything I liked--but let's start there. "Red" doesn't mean anything to me--it must be referenced to a particular measurement, and that will tell you a lot about where your signal is and should be.

API X12 pres do, in fact, sound best when they're in their "sweet spot." Which is just tickling "red" on the LED ladder display. This is probably what he's talking about.

Forget about using the pad - sounds nasty.

If the A2D is anything like the 3124, the output may be too hot, when they're in that spot.

Standard practice on the 3124 is to pad the outputs -10dB, so that the pres sound their best, and you still get sane levels to "Tape."

[Somniferous]

Nominal operating level on any digital system will be -10 dbFS and the point of distortion is 0 dbFS, levels should generally be kept at or just above the nominal (i try to keep the hottest signals at around -5), unlike tape you can not push anything digital and expect harmonic distortion.

[Sunbreak Music]

Originally Posted by Somniferous

Nominal operating level on any digital system will be -10 dbFS and the point of distortion is 0 dbFS, levels should generally be kept at or just above the nominal (i try to keep the hottest signals at around -5), unlike tape you can not push anything digital and expect harmonic distortion.

I don't think I can agree with a "nominal level" on a digital system. It certainly depends on converter "headroom", which isn't the same across the board for all models. Factor in the usable headroom of the analog front end and the various models there, and it really gets difficult to say where anything "should be".

Understand Loudboy--haven't used an API, but agree about "sweet spots". I just wanted to make sure the sustained levels weren't in the red. ;-)

[E-Rock]

Dude, I hate to break it to you, but it's not your gear.
Your levels are way to hot. Ditch one mic, when you can make one sound good, then you can graduate to two.
Put on headphones, move the mic around, LISTEN!
What I hear is a way to hot, over limited, close mic-ed amp, with really muddy distortion.
Clocking would show up as clicks and pops, or a whistling sort of overtone.

Don't listen to internet 'recording' people. They don't know shit.
Trust me, you can make your rig sound great, you just have to work at it.

Turn the gain down a little @ the amp, turn the mic pre down, try moving the mic around until you hear what you want to hear. When that sounds great, then maybe experiment with adding a second mic. Don't EVER try to get your stuff as loud as commercial stuff. Leave it to a mastering guy.

[kludge]

Mastering, mastering, mastering. Don't EVER compare the level of a finished cd to that of working tracks! Your raw tracks and mixes shouldn't be anywhere near "loud". If you can't hear it well enough, turn up your speakers! 24 bit digital audio has enormous downward headroom, but very little upward headroom. If you clip it, it generates hard square waves and loses ALL musical content. That sounds muffled and harsh, y'know.

When I finally learned to keep my levels down during tracking and mixing, my sound improved 500%. Single biggest lesson I ever learned.

[bbrunskill]

Sorry, but it's user error. Start with one mic, track quieter.
Mic positioning also makes a huge difference! Spend some time moving the mic to find a sweeter sounding spot.

Of course it won't be as loud a mastered MP3!