Rat Pedal, Why no longer LM308 chip?

[illini]

Are these unable to made anymore for some reason? Anyone know the story about why these aren't being used?

I owned one that I got knew in 86. Used it off and on until 2000 when I sold it for no other reason than not using it that much at the time. The only piece of gear I have ever sold that I regret selling. I am now using a BYOC "Rat" pedal. Actually sounds very good. Just a bit more compressed than the original. I guess that brings up the question about what chips BYOC uses?

Went to a local store this morning that had three models (two from the 80's, and one from the early nineties). Even these models each sounded slightly different than one another. THE COST: $250 A PIECE.
Sold mine for $50

[illini]

Great question, I would like to know this too.

[Philly Fuzz]

I don't know why the switch, but you can get a big-box Vintage RI Rat w/LM308 chip for around $100 on ebay--they sound good.

I've had everything from an original big-box Rat, an 86 small box Rat, and a couple vintage reissues (plus, a few Rat clones) all with LM308 chips and the differences among them were fairly negligible.

My fav was the original big box with Tone knob (instead of filter). Mostly as the tone knob was easier to dial in than the filter. Kind of wish I kept that one....

[illini]

Originally Posted by Philly Fuzz

I don't know why the switch, but you can get a big-box Vintage RI Rat w/LM308 chip for around $100 on ebay--they sound good.

I've had everything from an original big-box Rat, an 86 small box Rat, and a couple vintage reissues (plus, a few Rat clones) all with LM308 chips and the differences among them were fairly negligible.

My fav was the original big box with Tone knob (instead of filter). Mostly as the tone knob was easier to dial in than the filter. Kind of wish I kept that one....

They had one with the tone knob at the store I went to today. It was cool. I thought all of them sounded good in there own way. Strange how they all were a little different though. I guess I will have to start looking for one again to replace the one I let go.

[vintage66]

Originally Posted by illini

They had one with the tone knob at the store I went to today. It was cool. I thought all of them sounded good in there own way. Strange how they all were a little different though. I guess I will have to start looking for one again to replace the one I let go.

Man, sounds like a cool store. Makes no sense that the '90's one was as much as the outher two though, especially the tone knob version. That might actually be a good price for that one, but for the '90's one, I just bought one on craigslist for $50 (they usually sell for $70 up to maybe $100 I think.

[tjmicsak]

If you buy a RATII and then the Monte Alumns Mod, you can have a keely modded RAT still, but it takes some work. The Volume Pots are cheap and the knobs are glued on or at least so tight that when you attempt to pull them off to take the unit apart, the shafts pull right out of the pots. I still proceded to replace the pots and ad the mods, but used jumper wires from the board to the pots. Extensions also had to be made to the pots from threaded lamp tube which was tapped on the inside to thread on the pots. Alot of work but I now have a TriMod RAT. The mod also replaces the new chip with the LM308N.

[ninjaaron]

Originally Posted by illini

Are these unable to made anymore for some reason? Anyone know the story about why these aren't being used?

I owned one that I got knew in 86. Used it off and on until 2000 when I sold it for no other reason than not using it that much at the time. The only piece of gear I have ever sold that I regret selling. I am now using a BYOC "Rat" pedal. Actually sounds very good. Just a bit more compressed than the original. I guess that brings up the question about what chips BYOC uses?

Went to a local store this morning that had three models (two from the 80's, and one from the early nineties). Even these models each sounded slightly different than one another. THE COST: $250 A PIECE.
Sold mine for $50

I believe the no longer make the LM308. The originals housed in a metal 'can' and the later ones are housed in a normal looking IC. Both are readily available NOS and can be had for four or five bucks. Your BYOC came with one of the later ones. Some people think this makes a small difference, but I have my doubts about this, but for the money, you might as well pick up the 'can' (LM308AH) and see if you prefer the sound. Here it is: http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail....8&sfs=19656bbd

What is more likely the case (I think) is that your BYOC is using higher quality components all around (metal film caps and resistors as opposed to carbon film, etc..), and the tolerance is very low. That means the vintage RATS will have a lot more variation in the way they sound. I expect the differences stem from this. Different diodes also have different qualities as an artifact of production. You could try getting some more of the same kind of diodes and swapping them out to see which ones have less compression.

The new Rats from ProCo are using different opamps because it's much cheaper to buy parts that are currently in production (read: less than a dollar per). Very often companies like this hire electrical engineers to handle this kind of change over, rather than musicians. I'm sure if they used their ears, they could find a current production chip with sonic properties similar to LM308 (or make changes elsewhere to produce a similar effect). But that would take more time and be expensive.

And, the RAT already has a reputation. They will sell a certain number of pedals no matter how they sound. Not a good long term strategy, but it pays the bills.

I hope this helps.

[soulsonic]

No stock Rat ever used a metal can 308. They always had the plastic DIP style.

I think the BYOC Rat clone sounds like ass. The stock parts have no tone.

If you replace pots in a ProCo Rat, you can get CTS brand ones and they'll fit correctly.

[ninjaaron]

Originally Posted by soulsonic

No stock Rat ever used a metal can 308. They always had the plastic DIP style.

source?

Originally Posted by soulsonic

I think the BYOC Rat clone sounds like ass. The stock parts have no tone.

Which caps, resistors, pots, jacks, opamps, transistors, enclosures, switches, diodes, LED's, and battery clips do you suggest for someone seeking 'tone'?

[dosmun]

Originally Posted by soulsonic
No stock Rat ever used a metal can 308. They always had the plastic DIP style.
source?

I have one of the earliest one made and they have always used the chip not the can.

[ninjaaron]

Originally Posted by dosmun

I have one of the earliest one made and they have always used the chip not the can.

Oh. ok.

[illini]

Originally Posted by ninjaaron

I believe the no longer make the LM308. The originals housed in a metal 'can' and the later ones are housed in a normal looking IC. Both are readily available NOS and can be had for four or five bucks. Your BYOC came with one of the later ones. Some people think this makes a small difference, but I have my doubts about this, but for the money, you might as well pick up the 'can' (LM308AH) and see if you prefer the sound. Here it is: http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail....8&sfs=19656bbd

What is more likely the case (I think) is that your BYOC is using higher quality components all around (metal film caps and resistors as opposed to carbon film, etc..), and the tolerance is very low. That means the vintage RATS will have a lot more variation in the way they sound. I expect the differences stem from this. Different diodes also have different qualities as an artifact of production. You could try getting some more of the same kind of diodes and swapping them out to see which ones have less compression.

The new Rats from ProCo are using different opamps because it's much cheaper to buy parts that are currently in production (read: less than a dollar per). Very often companies like this hire electrical engineers to handle this kind of change over, rather than musicians. I'm sure if they used their ears, they could find a current production chip with sonic properties similar to LM308 (or make changes elsewhere to produce a similar effect). But that would take more time and be expensive.

And, the RAT already has a reputation. They will sell a certain number of pedals no matter how they sound. Not a good long term strategy, but it pays the bills.

I hope this helps.

Great info, thanks.

I think Proco should start to pay a little more attention, or their company will not be around much longer. Word on the street travels pretty fast. You can even go to Keeleys site and he has posted how he is not touching the new "Rats" anymore. Now that is bad press.

[illini]

Originally Posted by soulsonic

No stock Rat ever used a metal can 308. They always had the plastic DIP style.

I think the BYOC Rat clone sounds like ass. The stock parts have no tone.

If you replace pots in a ProCo Rat, you can get CTS brand ones and they'll fit correctly.

I owned an original 86 RAT that I played for years. Except for being more compressed, the BYOC "Rat" isn't all that different.

[jonathansuhr]

Originally Posted by illini

Great info, thanks.

I think Proco should start to pay a little more attention, or their company will not be around much longer. Word on the street travels pretty fast. You can even go to Keeleys site and he has posted how he is not touching the new "Rats" anymore. Now that is bad press.

Keep in mind that the target audience of RAT pedals is not boutique snobs like ourselves. The majority of the thousands of users are inexperienced teenagers/beginners looking for a popular distortion pedal, hence the main consumer of these products do not necessarily care as much about the quality of construction (or lack thereof). These pedals are mass produced, and one can only expect so much out of them.

[205]

I've got a late nineties RatII which came with the other chip, whatever it's called, I replaced it with the LM308 to see what the fuss was about and , really the difference is barely audible. I have one of those big box re-issues as well and again the difference in sound is only very slight and each Rat can be dialed to sound like the other anyway. I think there is a lot of hype when it comes to the Rat, it's a basic circuit and unless it's been modded to the extreme , a Rat is a Rat in my opinion. Just plug in and enjoy!