Are Boss buffers killing my tone?

[schwa]

I have a pedal board that I've been working on for the last year or so, but it's causing me some frustration. Here it is as it stands:



The 3 boss pedals are the last in the chain, and are off most of the time. I used to have a Boss CS-3 compressor lurking early in the chain until I figured out it was poisoning my signal with it's buffer (since it was off most of the time).

It seems I have found that if there's any fuzz in your chain, the Boss buffers seen to color things in a bad way.

Am I right, or paranoid? Are some Boss pedals worse than others in terms of "buffer pollution"?

[Stormbringer]

I seem to recall my fuzze3s acting weird when there was a buffered pedal in the chain but nowadays I tend to don't use either for the most part.

Try putting the Boos pedals in a TB loop or several loops for that matter.

[re-animator]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Your chain is long enough that two things are virtually inevitable:

- the need for buffers
- some loss of signal integrity


if you were to put those boss pedals in some sort of TB loop, you would probably notice some attenuation of high end due to the long cable run without a buffer. However, having a buffer in there to begin with is some sort of compromise. It will alter things like the way your amp cleans up with your volume knob, etc. but most players see more good than bad out of it.


ALL BUFFERS ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL. Most dedicated buffers will be better than the Boss stuff, as will some higher end buffered pedals (Trex, Cornish, Carl Martin, TC electronic, Eventide, etc.).


With my own board, I preferred to keep things minimal, though I still have a single buffer in there (Trex). I believe in buffers, but there are better options than boss if you want to maintain maximum signal integrity.

[paulydangerous]

Take out the Phase 90, the EQ and the CE-5 and I bet it sounds a lot better.

[Stormbringer]

BTW, I too believe in buffers. Not a TB afficionado, I'll use whatever gives me the best possible tone. Since i have a lot of cables and a 10-14 pedals pedalboard, I really need quality buffers.

But I seem to recall Boss's buffers having some effect on my fuzzes.

[arthur rotfeld]

I don't use half as many pedals and I get tons of tone suck. I've resorted to using an EQ as an always-on boost. Helps me a great deal.

[dhatadi]

I'd say you need a good buffer at the front of the chain. Something like an MI Audio Boost N Buff or Wampler buffer.

[sandman]

do you HEAR any 'loss'?

CS-3 does color the sound when off, noticed that myself

Boss' delays have pretty good buffers and I didn't notice anything too bad with the EQ when I played it today...No idea about the chorus, is that one digital? Even if so I doubt it does anything weird to the signal when off.

Phase90 can be a tonesucker in some rigs, buffers before it actually cure this 'problem'. I think you have just 'enough' pedals it's hard to tell which ones 'suck' tone. Even TB stuff has a 'sound' of it's own when off...

That's a pretty nice rig, have fun playing and forget 'bout buffers!

[Julia343]

The Fuzz pedals go BEFORE any buffer. If you do that you'll be okay. I usually only use a TS808 (this is my buffer) in front of the amp, and if I use a fuzz it's a Screwdriver and that goes in front of the tubescreamer.

My studio is a mess, because I'm finding I don't keep a contiguous board like I used to. I just plug in the pedals I'm going to use. If I find myself not using something for a week, it goes out of the chain. Nothing replaces it.

[amz-fx]

It is not that Boss buffers are bad... they are okay. The problem is that so many are left in the signal path even when the pedal is bypassed. Every electronic circuit contributes some small amount of noise to a signal when it is in use... good circuits contribute very little but others will have more noise. A high value resistor, such as a 1M used on the input of a buffer for bias, is a noise generator by itself.

If you leave 9 buffers in the signal path when bypassed, and each contributes only 2 db of additional noise, then the final signal will be 12db more noisy than the original (since some noise cancels out).

This is in addition to any added distortion or tone loss, which will also add up with every circuit in series...

More reading: http://www.muzique.com/news/true-bypass-misinformation/

regards, Jack

[andrekp]

Is that Vox wah true bypass? If not, wahs tend to suck way more tone that the Boss buffers. I really don't think you've got too many though. If you could move that EQ to the start (if you like that), that could act as an initial buffer for you.

I have a Boss tuner as my buffer and it's always buffering. It sits between a true bypass DIY wah, and the rest of my pedal board. My pedal board has a few boss pedals and a bunch of true bypass non-boss, but I have a five loop true pypass switcher that I use to bring in only what is being used.

You could find a good pedal to use as a buffer - if not the EQ, then buy/build a true bypass looper to only add your other non-true bypass when you want them.

And I don't mean to sound like I'm an everything must be true bypass kool-aide drinker, as I'm not. I think there should always be at least one buffer in the chain. I just like to pull everything else out, including true bypass pedals when I'm not using them, to keep the wire as short as possible.

[Jon Silberman]

Originally Posted by Julia343

The Fuzz pedals go BEFORE any buffer. If you do that you'll be okay. ...

... I just plug in the pedals I'm going to use. If I find myself not using something for a week, it goes out of the chain. Nothing replaces it.

It's my understanding that the first statement is true only for germanium chip fuzzes but I'm open to being corrected if that's wrong.

Very much agree with the latter in principle but you don't necessarily need to remove the not-frequently-used pedals. Here's one possible solution (individual loop for each pedal):

[re-animator]

Nope, Si fuzzes don't like buffers either.

general rule of thumb, if you want the pedal to clean up with dynamics or your volume knob, you want it before the buffer.

[twostring]

The typical questionnaire I go through with customers...

1. How are you currently routing all of these effects (effect order)?

2. What does each effect do for you/what do you want it to do?

3. When you go through each effect on its own, can you find a single pedal that "sucks" the tone as you describe?

4. If you can't find a single pedal that causes the effect you describe, start linking pedals together in order from the beginning of the chain to the end and testing through the amp each time you add a pedal. Stop when you hear the "suck" you describe. Skip the problematic pedal and continue linking the rest of the chain together. If you encounter the same problem, skip that pedal and connect the next. If you can get through this, you can usually find the problematic pedals and isolate them with true-bypass loops if needed.

The way I interpret the chain may be different than how you're actually using it. If this were my setup, I would run it as follows...

Big Muff
Wah
Deja Vibe
Ultimate Octave
Fulldrive
Tonebone
Barber EQ
Phase 90
Volume
Chorus
Delay

I would remove the Boss EQ because I can't really see the need for two EQ pedals, and I personally prefer the Barber over the Boss. You might have individual applications for both, so if you can fill me in I might be able to wrap my head around your setup better. The main problem I see if the lack of a buffer at the head of the signal chain. In my experience, that's where they make the biggest difference, although I usually place the buffer after the Muff and Wah. Answer those questions above for yourself and you might find out you don't really have a purpose for that many pedals, or at least in the order you currently have them in.

[jaywalker]

Let me put it this way>>>>>>>>>


I drive the hell out of my chain up front with a 4 way splitter, I have a mix of stock BOSS stuff and a bunch of TB, non TB and millenium bypass stuff. when I tried everything with a TB looper live I ended up getting monster volume boosts and drops so I went back to the old system.

Horses for courses I guess, the only bypass I kept on the board was a master bypass.