Dumb Amp Question of the Year

[VJF]

We all like the sound of an overdriven amp but many times it's too loud for the situation. Solutions to this problem range from master volume knobs to attenuators to power switches, etc.

My dumb question is why can't the circuit of a non-master volume amp like say a Fender Bassman or Marshall Plexi be made but with the components all scaled down in value so that the amp is less loud when overdriven?

In other words, what components make these two amps loud and why can't these components and the other parts that support them be scaled down in value to reduce the loudness?

If I stand back away from these two amps when they are overdriven and moving air they still sound great but not uncomfortably loud. So I know that they don't have to be loud to my ears to sound good but is there a need to be loud enough to move air to sound good and simply altering component values is not enough or is too much credit given to the impact of moving air?

I'm not technically savy when it comes to amps and how they work so please keep this in mind.

[lightningsmith]

I'm no amp expert but I think they already have what you're looking for in the form of Tweed Deluxe and 18 watt Marshalls. People who use the louder wattage amps are usually performing musicians who need that extra oomph, sustain and volume.

[VJF]

I understand that there are alternatives to the Bassman and Plexi but the circuits of these alternatives is not the same.

I wanted to know if it was possible to make the same circuit less loud by changing the value or scaling down the components that make up that circuit.

I know that this has to be a dumb question or somebody would have made a ''bedroom version" (but still the same circuit) of the Bassman and Plexi by now.

[stratovarius]

It's a matter of scaling down the voltages which has been done by several builders. Maven Peal has a proprietary system known as Wattage Control and others have done it using a system known as Power Scaling.

[mraajr]

^^^^^^

nevertheless 100w is not that much louder than 50w. Nor is 50w that much louder than 25w. You never seem to get the volume control you need with Wattage Control just more less a break-up control with the amp cranked. I would suggest a good attenuator.

[strumminsix]

It's not a dumb question just poorly stated.

I think what you mean is the same preamp but lower wattage poweramp, yes?

Folks who love the sound of a well driven amp usually love the trifecta:
Clip the preamp
Clip the poweramp
Clip the speakers

That said here is what you've can accomplish with what you mentioned:
Clip the preamp --> Master volume (but you don't clip the poweramp or speakers)
Clip the poweramp --> Hotplate (but you don't clip the preamp unless you have a MV nor do you clip the speakers)
Clip the speakers --> no solution available

I think the key missing component is the speaker in all the solutions. Would need something with low wattage prior to peaking but sounding the same. I have not seen that accomplished well in the past. Seems like wattage and coil and cone and basket and tone have some relationship that I am not smart enough to understand.

[12watt]

You mean like this but in Bassman form?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeUMDY01uUA

[VJF]

strumminsix,

Very nice summary but you lost me on the need to clip the speakers.

I thought that the job of a speaker is to convert electrical energy from the preamp and power amp sections into sound so we can hear what the amp has done to our guitar signal.

Are you saying that speakers are a component that contribute to the loudness of an amp (aside from efficiency differences between speakers)?

I know speakers can distort but this distortion does not make the amp louder does it?

Excuse my ignorance.

[GCDEF]

Speakers don't really clip, but they can distort. I think what he's saying is that the speakers may sound differently when fed different levels of power and that would be hard to reproduce. Your ears her the same signal differently at different volumes too.

[GregoryL]

Originally Posted by `V`

I know speakers can distort but this distortion does not make the amp louder does it?

Speaker choice can make an amp louder, but more importantly amp break-up is part of what we like when we're hearing a cranked amp.

It's part of the formula for what makes loud amps sound the way they do.

[VJF]

Originally Posted by 12watt

You mean like this but in Bassman form?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeUMDY01uUA

Yes good analogy!

[strumminsix]

V - glad it helped. What GregoryL said, the speaker break-up. I called it clipping, prolly a bad choice of words on my part.

Most guitar speakers don't clip until the poweramp is really pushing them hard and I have not seen a lower wattage speakers that sound good

[12watt]

Even if it was possible to get an exact replica of the sound waves produced by a cranked Bassman etc but in a scaled down form it wouldn't sound right due to the nature of our hearing. We are much more sensitive to middle frequencies than bass and treble - an attenuated but measurably identical sound would be more "telephone-y" than we'd desire.

Not to mention the fact that changing the voltages fed to components makes a big difference in tones produced. Guitar amps are quite simple physically but complicated acoustically, the sound comes from lots of variables that blend in either a good or bad way.

[VJF]

Thanks guys...all makes sense to me now...appreciate it!

[PLAYLOUD]

Originally Posted by `V`

We all like the sound of an overdriven amp but many times it's too loud for the situation. Solutions to this problem range from master volume knobs to attenuators to power switches, etc.

My dumb question is why can't the circuit of a non-master volume amp like say a Fender Bassman or Marshall Plexi be made but with the components all scaled down in value so that the amp is less loud when overdriven?

In other words, what components make these two amps loud and why can't these components and the other parts that support them be scaled down in value to reduce the loudness?

If I stand back away from these two amps when they are overdriven and moving air they still sound great but not uncomfortably loud. So I know that they don't have to be loud to my ears to sound good but is there a need to be loud enough to move air to sound good and simply altering component values is not enough or is too much credit given to the impact of moving air?

I'm not technically savy when it comes to amps and how they work so please keep this in mind.

Give us about a month, and we may have what you're looking for.......