Glassy AND warm pickups for a 62 Hot Rod?

[13stitches]

Hello forum members!

I hope you guys can help me out with this. It's gonna be a long post, but i hope this doesn't scare the knowledgable people off.

I recently bought a 62 hot rod strat - already acousticaly a very good sounding, open and balanced instrument, with some great chime and jangle - to my ear as good as it gets with current production strats - puts all my other guitars to shame.

They had the 57/62 pups with the rwrp mid stock. My previous strat that i sold to buy this one - a CP 60's had the CS69 pickups, which were ok, but the bridge was too thin, and so was the middle to my ear (can also probably be attributed to properties of the instrument itself), neck was fine. had some quack in 2nd pos (bridge/middle) and bit of chime in the 4th. Those didn't sound very "stratty" to me.

What i'm looking for in a strat (sorry for the too many and too bad metaphors, but i want to try to be clear, because everybody seems to atribute the same words for very different properties in sound) is a full, round and defined neck, a combination of quack and chime in the 4th position that together makes a "glassy" sound - with the slight shimmer in the highs underlying each note - tho notes sound a bit like pearls gently rubed against each other, but without any shrillness - think of SRV's Lenny. Middle is "throaty", a bit nasal, but also full and a bit edgy, with slight bite. Really pronounced "quack" in the 2nd position and a "usable" bridge - meaning - it should have the bite, but also some body and a bit of fullness to it. This to me sounds like a "stratty" strat, the neck and 4th being the most important ones for my stratOfetish.

Well, i have the feeling that the 57/62's come close to this, except the bridge, which is not as bad as the cs69, but still too thin and bright. On my guitar, despite the rwrp i got a quite good glassiness in 4 and good quack in 2. I had a set of pickups from leosounds lying around - the VintagePlayer 56, which are qound at around 6.0-6.1K (according to specsheet) and that should be very balanced, with nice warmth and mids, without the slight scoop the 57/62 still have. Handwound - so they should be a bit edgier in the highs than machine wounds and should sound a bit more "vintage". If you listen to the sound samples on the leosounds.de - for the VintagePlayer 56 pups - thats EXACTLY the tone i lust for - it's a fantastic, classic stratty tone heard from SRV and almost any other recording of a good vintage strat. So i installed them, hoping they would be like the 57/62, just warmer, fuller and rounder. (i suppose they are similar to the CS 54's - though i've never tried those)
While i really LOVE the tone on the individual positions of the VP 56, they don't sound "stratty" in 4 and 2, although i tried everything with the pickup height, etc. 4 is chimey, but thats it - no quack, no real glassiness - not those round 3-d glass spheres shaping each note like in the clips. 2 has a bit of quack and actually sounds more glassy than 4 (?) - could live with that, but i can't live without the glassy 3d thing on 4.

I don't think that the guitar is lacking in tone or the potential to chime. I rather think, that my set of VP56 pups could be overwound (bought them used - so maybe, when ordered, this option was chosen, or maybe they are overwound by accident) - have to measure them someday soon.

I figure i could live with a slight mid-scoop, but with a pronounced glassiness in 4 and quack in 2. (i run it through a jtm-45 clone, so mids are not an issue)

The bridge from the vp56 is definetly a "keeper" - bright, but fulbodied and very usable - my first strat i can attribute this to.

I was also changing the 57/62 because they have the rwrp mid, which, afaik, make for a less glassy and quacky sound - so i wanted to try a mid without this.

So - at last my question - what would you guys recommend for me? What i want is generally a classic stratty strat sound with a balanced tone - not too much of a mid-scoop. So - the post-CBS types are not for me. I like the VP56 in the individual positions (so probably also the CS54's), but i miss the quackiness and glassiness i heard with the 57/62's, even with the rwrp (that's also why i think this not a problem of the instrument itself - i'm sure it can quack and make huge glass spheres ). Something like a mix between the CS54's and 57/62's? Or a warm version of 57/62's?

All my knowledge about pups is from forums and now i understand that it is not knowledge, it's confusion - everybody has their presumptions and experiences which are too individual. I always thought the 50's type pickups were the glassier ones, the bit more scooped ones, the quackiest (5.6-5.9K), while the 60's are the hotter, bitier, with more body and mids (6.0-6.4K, SRV'ish). So i thought i had to look in the 50's direction for glass and quack. But the glassiest and stratiest ones i've experienced are the most underwound-ones - the 57/62 (5.6K) that, for example, Klein sells as a 63' set? Why is that - i mean - the avarage on vintage strats in 63 was one of the hottest years - about 6.3-6.4K?

So, is the 5.6K (underwound, right?) the best range for the most pronounced 3d glass and quack? Still not being very scooped? Or are there other factors for the pickups that contribute to the glass and quack?

For now i plan to find somewhere a 57/62 non-rwrp mid (or trade it in for my rwrp with someone who wants this) and try it in combination with the vp56 bridge - maybe that will even improve the glass and quack on my guitar?

The other option i consider is going with a tapped set from Klein - 54/63' (5., 5.6, 5.6 (essentially a handwound version of the 57/62) / 5.9, 5.9, 6.5 - so i would be able to get both types of sound i strive for. Klein assured me on the mail that the set retains the exact tone of the individual sets - the 54' and 63'. So would a handwound 5.6K set give me glass and quack heaven? the 54 side should give me the warmer and fuller tones, when needed.

I know everybody has their own favorites from all the boutique stuff, but there are so many of them that it is just too confusing. So, please, let's stay within Fender and maybe, lets say Chris Klein pickups (because he has almost the same prices as Fender and a really huge variety of pups). And anyway idon't believe that, provided the right parts and materials are used, the handwound pickups of different manufacturers differ that much - what makes difference is probably the resistance on the pups, etc.

Thanks a LOT in advance to you who chime in on this and conquer this megapost! - sorry for that - but i wanted to deliver everything in context - otherwise it usually seems with such threads that there is only miscommunication going on.

Best Regards,

13stitches

[furry]

Suhr FLs. Done.

[K-Line]

Lollar Tweed neck, Blonde middle, Blonde bridge or Special bridge for more punch.

[13stitches]

Thanks for the input guys! I'm aware of both these sets, but there are no sound samples of the FL on the suhr site. From the Lollars the Tweeds sound like having the 4th position-tone i'm looking for, but it is a bit too scooped :/
Any tips on the resistance range the most 3d glassiness for the 4th position resides in? The lower DC the better, or is it a range - for example - 5.3-5.6 or something like that?

13stitches

[shark_bite]

I'd continue talking with Chris. He's a good guy and he winds great sounding pickups. I've never heard anyone say anything bad about his pickups either.

I have the same guitar thought it looks like it's just pending payment and then it'll be on its way somewhere else. However, I had a lot of the same thoughts about the stock pickups, so I went with a set of 69s just to "eliminate the option" - more or less expecting not to like them. As it turns out, they sound awesome! I recorded a couple rough clips with that guitar through a couple amps, and have really been liking what I'm hearing from it. If I were able to keep the guitar, I'd probably leave those pickups where they are for a while.

Here's a video of mine, post-pickup swap, through my 59 Bassman LTD
Here's another video of it being played through my Bad Cat Cub IIR

Another great option if Klein or Fender can't help you would be Don Mare's Josie wind pickups. Supposedly those are as good as it gets for a VHR 62.

[MRW55]

I have a Hot Rod '62, and I've been where you are. Love the guitar, wasn't quite taken with the stock pups, although they weren't bad. I got lucky. I snagged a set of Chubtone '63's with an El Gordo bridge, and nothing can touch this particular strat now. I mean, notes just leap from this guitar, and the low end honestly makes my back teeth rattle even at low volumes. The problem for you is, Mike Gray doesn't wind the Chubtones anymore. But with this guitar's fat neck (great if you like such things), I think you need pups in the low to mid 6K range for neck and middle, and something in the mid 7K range or even hotter in the bridge. I think this guitar needs strong pups to shine, maybe because of that neck. There are a lot of guys hand winding fine pups now; just make sure to get hand wound pups for all that scatter wind stuff brings to the table. Good luck!

[Curly]

Originally Posted by MRW55

I have a Hot Rod '62, and I've been where you are. Love the guitar, wasn't quite taken with the stock pups, although they weren't bad. I got lucky. I snagged a set of Chubtone '63's with an El Gordo bridge, and nothing can touch this particular strat now.

haha .... just about the same here ... Chubtones did the trick!
Loved his pickups so much I actually emailed Mark Gray, aka, "Mr. Chubtone". He said he may wind pickups again, but so far I haven't seen any show up.

I'd suggest you consider an early 60s set from Chris @ Klein Pickups.

[ILikeGuitar]

I have the 62HR as well, great guitar
First thing I didn't like was the pickups though, they were dark and kinda lifeless imo

I bought some handwound BG Pups V60s from Bryan Gunsher and they made the guitar sound much better. More bell like and much more articulate single notes. They're also much cheaper than a lot of hand wound pickups too. Very satisfied.

BTW my favorite strat tone EVER:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cduar...x=0&playnext=1

If anyone knows how to get this tone without spending 25000 dollars, let me know haha

[cg]

I have Fralin Vintage Hots and a Fralin SP43 (bridge) in my 62HR and I think they sound great!

[13stitches]

Thanks for the tips guys! Well, this thread seems to head where most of them do - name-dropping. Maybe it would be more productive to talk about the specs that add to a certain sound as i'm convinced that the handwound pickups of to companys with the same specs and materials are gonna sound identical.

I just want to know if the 5.6K resistance is the sweet spot for a glassy, quacky 3d-sounding 4th position, while stil lbeing quite warm - so i started a new thread on that. But, if you have anything to add about the properties of certain reistance ranges etc. i would be greatful if you'd add your comment (here or in the new thread).

13stitches

[mattmccloskey]

Originally Posted by 13stitches

Thanks for the tips guys! Well, this thread seems to head where most of them do - name-dropping. Maybe it would be more productive to talk about the specs that add to a certain sound as i'm convinced that the handwound pickups of to companys with the same specs and materials are gonna sound identical.

I just want to know if the 5.6K resistance is the sweet spot for a glassy, quacky 3d-sounding 4th position, while stil lbeing quite warm - so i started a new thread on that. But, if you have anything to add about the properties of certain reistance ranges etc. i would be greatful if you'd add your comment (here or in the new thread).

13stitches

I believe the 2 primary things that you should look at are the output (which is related to resistance with these vintage type single coils) and the magnet type. Alnico 2, 3, and 5 are the options I see available.

I think when dealing with this type of pickup you pretty much trade output for glass and vice versa. Tough to have both. The higher outputs increase mids and gain, and get darker. The glassiness comes form the lower outputs . The magnets make a difference - the alnico 2's are certainly softer in the attack and a bit more compressed feeling in my opinion.

I think to combine glassy with some smoothness you would want around 6 k output (fairly low) but with alnico 2 magnets.
Personally I like moderate outputs on the neck and middle, and a hotter bridge with a baseplate. This will get the best of both worlds in general, and I never want a quaky or glassy bridge sound.

One of my favorite sets is the first duncan antiquity set. It has neck and middle around 6k but bumps the bridge up to 9 K. I think it sounds great that way.

[johnh]

What I did was change the bridge pickup for an underwound Bare Knuckle Apache with a baseplate. If you change the bridge pickup, then you could swap your non-RWRP bridge pickup into the middle position and just put your middle pickup away.

The Bare Knuckle pickup is normally 6.4k, but I have one of those, and it was darker than I wanted, so I ordered another one underwound to about 6.1-6.2k. To be honest, if you played my strat, there is no way you could detect that it is not a matched set. The bridge doesn't really sound hotter than the middle or neck. It still has all the nice high end, but the baseplate and slightly higher wind just give it that extra edge.

It is possible that a baseplate on your bridge pickup would do the job on it's own, but I have absolutely no idea how to fit a baseplate.

I know that Bare Knuckle are not quite as convenient for you guys in the US, but I was shocked at how easy it was to talk to Tim about what I wanted, and it was so cool to speak to one of the world's premier pickup builders in person about my pickup and have him say that he'd be winding it that afternoon.

The Apache pickups are 50's style alnico III pickups and have won gold awards in most of the UK guitar mags for their lovely woody tone.

Whether you go with BK or not, I'd recommend about 6 - 6.2k for your bridge pickup, swap the old bridge pup to the middle, and with relatively little expense, you could have a killer setup.

[diego]

A Fralin baseplate will make the bridge pup more solid and they are very easy to install.

[homerayvaughan]

Originally Posted by 13stitches

Thanks for the tips guys! Well, this thread seems to head where most of them do - name-dropping. Maybe it would be more productive to talk about the specs that add to a certain sound as i'm convinced that the handwound pickups of to companys with the same specs and materials are gonna sound identical.

I just want to know if the 5.6K resistance is the sweet spot for a glassy, quacky 3d-sounding 4th position, while stil lbeing quite warm - so i started a new thread on that. But, if you have anything to add about the properties of certain reistance ranges etc. i would be greatful if you'd add your comment (here or in the new thread).

13stitches

I think one factor you may overlook is sometimes a lighter/heavier guitar will respond differently with hotter vs underwound pickups. If it is light, 7lbs or less, sometimes a hotter pickup sounds better. I have a '64 strat with original pickups, not rewound, maybe medium light weight, and it is in the 5.6-5.4k range and the neck and neck/middle combo is perfect to me. I don't like a hot strat pickup, doesn't sound like a strat, and not a fan of rwrp either. Only issue is the bridge is a bit thin, but that's the trade off.

[Barbiche2]

Fralin Blues Specials with baseplate would do the trick!...