Help me out...What is the Appeal of "Cookie Monster" Metal??

[Bankston]

Originally Posted by YoungAmerican

Change the way you think about "vocals". In metal, it has more to do with the sound and the feel than the words themselves. It establishes the mood. It's guttural, aggressive, percussive. It adds a thematic element to the music that is relatively unique to metal.

To write it off as just teenagers wanting to rebel is to blatantly not know what you're talking about.

And I don't get why anyone is talking about metal in the context of mainstream music. Metal is has always existed as a subculture. It's not supposed to be "palatable" to a wide audience. Not all music has to be. That's the great thing about music.

I agree that Metal has always existed as a subculture but it has also enjoyed immense popularity and success. Sabbath, Priest, Metallica, Maiden, Disturbed, etc. have combined sold hundreds of millions of records and played sold out shows all over the world. All of those bands feature melodic vocals.

In my view, there's a place for the CM vocals. Some bands want to follow a certain aesthetic that doesn't appeal to a wide audience and they care more about developing a loyal following and staying true to that aesthetic. And it works for them because metalheads are among the most loyal music fans on the planet. So if these guys can earn a living doing what they love, more power to them.

I like a lot of the metalcore bands that mix the CM vocals with screams and melodic singing. Killswitch Engage is my favorite in this genre and they seem to be building a nice career with increasing mainstream exposure. In fact, I haven't heard anyone emote using the CM voice as well as Howard Jones. Dude is just sick.

[gregorybj]

Originally Posted by pete692

Sorry dude, you metalcore fanboys don't get to decide what constitutes valid "metal". Metal has been around way longer than this cookie monster vocal horseshit and it will be around long after the last copycat poser grunts out his last unintelligible series of gurgles. There's nothing subtle, artistic, deep or even unique about these vocals. They communicate no melody or emotion beyond some sorry attempt at misguided phony rage. They've actually become a laughable cliche', and when that happens to an artistic genre it's time is almost up. Tick Tock.

By the way, this stuff doesn't languish as an element of the sub-culture because it's good, no, it occupies that space because it sucks. Anyone of these guys would jump at a shot of a wider audience if they could, but the audience for delusional, self hating unoriginal talentless hacks is a very small one indeed. That's why all the aggro/industrial/black/death sub of a sub genre of metal will die. There's just no money in it. It's been around going on 20 years and none of these bands have broken wide open yet. That speaks volumes about the validity of this style of singing as an art form.

well put! Never thought of it that way.

[YoungAmerican]

Originally Posted by pete692

Sorry dude, you metalcore fanboys don't get to decide what constitutes valid "metal". Metal has been around way longer than this cookie monster vocal horseshit and it will be around long after the last copycat poser grunts out his last unintelligible series of gurgles. There's nothing subtle, artistic, deep or even unique about these vocals. They communicate no melody or emotion beyond some sorry attempt at misguided phony rage. They've actually become a laughable cliche', and when that happens to an artistic genre it's time is almost up. Tick Tock.

By the way, this stuff doesn't languish as an element of the sub-culture because it's good, no, it occupies that space because it sucks. Anyone of these guys would jump at a shot of a wider audience if they could, but the audience for delusional, self hating unoriginal talentless hacks is a very small one indeed. That's why all the aggro/industrial/black/death sub of a sub genre of metal will die. There's just no money in it. It's been around going on 20 years and none of these bands have broken wide open yet. That speaks volumes about the validity of this style of singing as an art form.

First of all, unbunch your panties.

Who said it "languishes" as an element of subculture? It's been doing just fine for years. Popularity has never been and will never be a valid indicator of musical worth.

Originally Posted by dsj

Neither do you.

And there it is.

Not everyone who dislikes metal because of the "cookie monster" vocals is small minded. But the guy above ranting about "metalcore fanboys" and how his measure of artistic integrity is supreme sure as hell is.

Originally Posted by Bankston

I agree that Metal has always existed as a subculture but it has also enjoyed immense popularity and success. Sabbath, Priest, Metallica, Maiden, Disturbed, etc. have combined sold hundreds of millions of records and played sold out shows all over the world. All of those bands feature melodic vocals.

Definitely, and I think that has a lot to do with melodic vocals being more "palatable" to mainstream listeners. But the acts you mentioned there are a relatively small sliver of the big mother****er of a pie that is metal. Just like rock 'n' roll evolved from a sound closer to Elvis, metal has evolved quite a bit from acts like Sabbath.

That's the thing about subcultures - they occasionally "break through" and make a cameo in popular culture, to varying degrees. But with metal, for instance, it'll never be something you hear on Top 40 radio.

But that said, go to Germany and you'll see how huge the metal subculture is. And those folks love their cookie monster stuff.

[JRDill]

Yous aid they were in the Atlanta area? Check out The Chariot. They're an Atlanta based band that's definitely in the genre and are pretty successful.

[bkd_guitarist]

Originally Posted by Analog Delay

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnO8NuqfvWI

Awesome...absolutely awesome, and I mean in a funny way. Funniest thing I've seen today.

I adore this thread. "Cookie monster vocals" is the perfect descriptor. I can't tell you how many times I'm groovin' to a cool heavy guitar intro riff on the modern rock radio station, and then...here comes the singer with the Cookie monster thing. My reaction..."Aw, for f*ck's sake..." and an immediate station change. I like the aggressiveness of the music, but I HATE that vocal style. Godsmack is about as Cookie-monsterish as I can handle, and they're pretty low on the Mrs. Fields scale.

[YoungAmerican]

Originally Posted by gregorybj

well put! Never thought of it that way.

Well put? There isn't a single valid point in that diatribe.

There's no melody in them? Who says "vocals" have to be melodic in the first place? Where is that rule written?

If these vocals are cliched, doesn't that mean everyone who sings like a normal human being about things like love and heartbreak is buying into a much larger, more time-honored cliche?

And again, why does how much money they make have any bearing on musical value? Use that a measure and you'll end up having to bite the bullet that your music will never be as good or worthwhile as that of Mariah Carey, Britney Spears, ABBA, or Celine Deon.

[YoungAmerican]

Originally Posted by angrybandnerd

Yous aid they were in the Atlanta area? Check out The Chariot. They're an Atlanta based band that's definitely in the genre and are pretty successful.

The Chariot are pretty badass.

[YoungAmerican]

For the record, I'm not even that into metal. I enjoy a handful of acts, although I don't listen to them as often as I do other stuff. Yes, some of them scream instead of singing.

More than anything, I respect its place in the musical landscape. I understand that it comes from a place other music doesn't. It serves a purpose other music doesn't. The cliches that exist in metal are no worse than the cliches that exist in any other type of music. Like any genre, though, among the vast array of acts there are a few who truly do it well. They do what they do with sincerity, they take their time working out tight, clever arrangements. Sometimes they push the boundaries of what we normally perceive as music.

To not like it is one thing. But to question it's artistic value is to miss the point entirely.

[Blue Tile Fever]

They can't sing or scream, so they just growl and gargle into the mic and try to sound evil in the process. Might as well just stick the mic into their asscrack and fart, it would sound pretty much the same.

[pete692]

Originally Posted by YoungAmerican

Well put? There isn't a single valid point in that diatribe.

There's no melody in them? Who says "vocals" have to be melodic in the first place? Where is that rule written?

If these vocals are cliched, doesn't that mean everyone who sings like a normal human being about things like love and heartbreak is buying into a much larger, more time-honored cliche?

And again, why does how much money they make have any bearing on musical value? Use that a measure and you'll end up having to bite the bullet that your music will never be as good or worthwhile as that of Mariah Carey, Britney Spears, ABBA, or Celine Deon.

You mean there isn't a single valid point that agrees with your "valid" points. The crucial thing about vocals in music is that they are your most direct line of human interaction with your audience. The thing that these vocals are missing are any element of INDIVIDUALITY. People using traditional singing methods are all beholden to their own physical uniqueness and limitations when performing, no matter what cliche's they employ. These physical qualities combined with the experience and background of the singer form a rich picture of the performer and often informs the words that are coming out their mouth. Contrast this with what basically amounts to taking a giant shit into a microphone. They all sound identical, totally severing the human connection. You can get more emotion out of a kazoo.

Also, say what you will about the "pop" music punching bags, ABBA, Celine and Mariah, but they spent countless thousands of hours perfecting their craft to get to that level. Even if I don't like their music, I love and respect when artists or anyone for that matter try to attain perfection within a field. I see none of this in the guttural sputterings of metalcore.

[bjjp2]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Cookie Monster thing all about trying to sound like, you know, SAATAANNNNN!!!. All in all, pretty silly and juvenille if you ask me. (Which nobody did).

[scottl]

Originally Posted by Blue Tile Fever

They can't sing or scream, so they just growl and gargle into the mic and try to sound evil in the process. Might as well just stick the mic into their asscrack and fart, it would sound pretty much the same.

[pinhooker]

If you can't handle grind or post hardcore, then dont listen to it.

You guys are so...old.

[YoungAmerican]

Originally Posted by pete692

You mean there isn't a single valid point that agrees with your "valid" points. The crucial thing about vocals in music is that they are your most direct line of human interaction with your audience. The thing that these vocals are missing are any element of INDIVIDUALITY.

How so? You don't think there are different vocal characteristics in the way different people scream? Sounds like you haven't actually listened to much of the music you're shitting on.

Hell, I could say everyone who sings like Daughtry/Nickelback/Staind/Creed lacks individuality. Is that an indictment of the entire rock genre? Of course not.

Originally Posted by pete692

People using traditional singing methods are all beholden to their own physical uniqueness and limitations when performing, no matter what cliche's they employ.

So are these metal vocalists. What, you think it's easy to do? Try it for yourself. Stand up on stage with a metal band and do the vocals it apparently takes no talent to do. It'll be a good way for you to get in touch with your own physical limitations.

Originally Posted by pete692

These physical qualities combined with the experience and background of the singer form a rich picture of the performer and often informs the words that are coming out their mouth. Contrast this with what basically amounts to taking a giant shit into a microphone. They all sound identical, totally severing the human connection. You can get more emotion out of a kazoo.

I'm pretty sure all the fans of bands like Opeth disagree about the human connection part. So, you're wrong. You don't connect with it? Fine, but that's not the point.

Also, you're completely disregarding the element of the feel of the vocals. Keep in mind that in many cases, the words themselves are not the point. It's about creating a mood, a certain kind of guttural texture that is impossible to create otherwise. It serves the specific type of music.

Originally Posted by pete692

Also, say what you will about the "pop" music punching bags, ABBA, Celine and Mariah, but they spent countless thousands of hours perfecting their craft to get to that level. Even if I don't like their music, I love and respect when artists or anyone for that matter try to attain perfection within a field. I see none of this in the guttural sputterings of metalcore.

And what, that doesn't happen in metal? Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It means it's not your thing. Move on. In the end it's a matter of taste, and your ridiculous ramblings about how little talent these guys have just makes you look like a fool to everyone who actually connects with the music, understands where the music is coming from, and why it sounds like it does.

Speaking of which, I'm not sure why it's okay to flat-out shit on a certain brand of metal. Especially when if you'd made the same comments about any of the highly-touted blooze guys around here you'd get a nice little slap on the wrist.

[YoungAmerican]

A few bands who do it well:

Lightning Bolt
SunnO)))
Isis

Plus the old Cave-In stuff was pretty brutal. Great stuff in there, for sure.