Running my Amp into a PA was a failure, what should I do the next time?

[Yossi]

Last night I brought my guitar and Blues Jr amp and lower end AKG Microphone to an outdoor musical celebration. I hung the mic from the handle of the amp so that it was laying flat against the grill with the ball of the mic in front of the speaker. There were two keyboards and a clarinet, and sax player also going through the PA.

I could not hear myself through the PA once the music was playing, even though I could hear myself during the sound check. Despite the sound guy turning up my channel up on the PA, any sound that may have been coming out was completely overpowered by the other music.

I could not hear myself in the mix and my tiny amp did not have the power to stand alone. I didn't bring my half-stack or any larger amp because I specifically asked that I be able to run through the PA.

I gave it about 15 minutes and then packed up my stuff.

What type of mic and other equipment do I need, and how should they be set up, so that I'll be able to do this more successfully in the future?

[zestystrat]

It sounds like you have everything you need.

Just remember, at fests, your volumes are in the hands of the soundman.

I guess I would ask: what happened from the sound check to the start of the set?

Some people don’t play at full volume at a sound check and then when the show starts, all of the volumes are off.

Did you have a monitor? If you won’t be able to hear yourself just by your amp, you better make sure you have some gtr in your monitor mix.

[RGB]

It sounds like your mic was picking up more stage noise than amp. Hanging a ball mic in front of a speaker is most likely the reason. Close micing with a 57 would reject a lot of that stage noise and allow the sound guy to lower the sensitivity of that channel. At the very least, use a mic stand and close mic directly at the cone.

An interface like the Red Box is another option...no stage noise with this!

[Lance]

I think you learned a great lesson. At an outdoor festival situation, NEVER leave it up to the sound guy. Especially outdoors! Always bring enough gear so, at the very least, you can hear yourself. Yes, you should've brought the half stack. I have heard Steve Kimock give this advice so many times, that it's engrained in my brain.

[oldhousescott]

I would recommend getting either a Behringer GI-100 or H&K RedBox DI and run your speaker signal through it, sending a signal to the house through the mic line. You might also want to turn your mids up and and your bass down more than you normally would, since you're competing with mid-rangey instruments.

[Yossi]

Originally Posted by zestystrat

It sounds like you have everything you need.

Just remember, at fests, your volumes are in the hands of the soundman.

I was not very happy with the sound man

Originally Posted by zestystrat

I guess I would ask: what happened from the sound check to the start of the set?

Originally Posted by zestystrat

Some people don’t play at full volume at a sound check and then when the show starts, all of the volumes are off.

Unfortunately the sound check was just me alone. I know that doesn't qualify as a sound check and it would have ferreted out the problem ahead of time. I mentioned that because I knew that my mic was working at one point.

Originally Posted by zestystrat

Did you have a monitor? If you won’t be able to hear yourself just by your amp, you better make sure you have some gtr in your monitor mix.

I don't have one. I was standing on top of my amp with one of the PA speakers blasting next to my head, so that's how I know that I wasn't coming out of the PA. A monitor wouldn't have been any different if it was going through the PA.

[Yossi]

Originally Posted by RGB

It sounds like your mic was picking up more stage noise than amp. Hanging a ball mic in front of a speaker is most likely the reason. Close micing with a 57 would reject a lot of that stage noise and allow the sound guy to lower the sensitivity of that channel. At the very least, use a mic stand and close mic directly at the cone.

An interface like the Red Box is another option...no stage noise with this!

I was concerned that the direction of the mic would be a problem, but I have seen others hang a mic the same way. I guess they had better mics?

Originally Posted by Lance

I think you learned a great lesson. At an outdoor festival situation, NEVER leave it up to the sound guy. Especially outdoors! Always bring enough gear so, at the very least, you can hear yourself. Yes, you should've brought the half stack. I have heard Steve Kimock give this advice so many times, that it's engrained in my brain

Yes I learned a good lesson, but that half stack is heavy! I was hoping to avoid the hard work.
I would still like to figure out what do do to get a good sound with the PA, at any rate.

Originally Posted by oldhousescott

I would recommend getting either a Behringer GI-100 or H&K RedBox DI and run your speaker signal through it, sending a signal to the house through the mic line.

Does that use a mic? Or does it require a direct line out?

Originally Posted by oldhousescott

You might also want to turn your mids up and and your bass down more than you normally would, since you're competing with mid-rangey instruments

That's good advice, but I couldn't hear my sound at all.

[oldhousescott]

Does that use a mic? Or does it require a direct line out?

A direct line out. You can either loop your speaker signal through the unit, or use a second speaker out (provided it doesn't cut off your internal speaker), or use an amp's line out.

[TenneyThe2nd]

I ended up ditching my favorite strat and playing an entire gig with the cheapo lawsuit les paul that was my first guitar because I just couldn't get enough volume out of the blues jr. for an outdoor gig. It can be plenty loud enough indoors, no matter how big the building is, but outside, especially with wind, one needs more wattage.

[Yossi]

Originally Posted by TenneyThe2nd

I ended up ditching my favorite strat and playing an entire gig with the cheapo lawsuit les paul that was my first guitar because I just couldn't get enough volume out of the blues jr. for an outdoor gig. It can be plenty loud enough indoors, no matter how big the building is, but outside, especially with wind, one needs more wattage.

I knew going into this gig that without the PA my BJ would be inadequate.
I was using an R9 Les Paul with a Tim pedal and that didn't make any difference.

[theanalogdream]

To me the problem first is that you are mic'ing the amp the worst way possible. You want to be able to have it pointed to the appropriate spot in the speaker so that it's not picking up anything from the side or stage...secondly as mentioned before, you are at the mercy of the sound man and the other musicians you play through. At outdoor gigs, there is far more open space, which allows smaller amps to get lost in translation easier..hopefully next time goes a little smoother for you!

[mike@nortoncable.com]

Originally Posted by Yossi

I knew going into this gig that without the PA my BJ would be inadequate.
I was using an R9 Les Paul with a Tim pedal and that didn't make any difference.

if your playing out doors bring some firepower no matter what!! I've only played a few festival type things, I was told to show up with a light rig, still I brought a 50watt marshall with a 2x12 cab and had difficultly hearing with 50watts of plexi behind.. A 15watt BJ on stage is tough!!! unless you have a monitor and its mic'd well &/or your DI'd its going to be drowned out easily..

always find out - what kind of bass rig does the bassist have
and how much brass does the drummer have..

[aarondavis]

Soooooooo much goes into getting your guitar sound into the PA and *then* into a decent mix. Sometimes just hanging a mic over the amps face will work OK, but I'd bet this was your main problem in this situation. For the past 12 years 99% of my gigs I didn't even have to think about the PA/sound reinforcement. I just showed up, set up my amp and pedal board... while i did that a sound tech was micing up my amp. Sometimes I'd move the mic around a bit, but that's it.

*BUT*, I've recently started playing out with a band where I'm not guaranteed that luxury. So every gig I show up with a good boom stand and a Sure Beta 57, that way I always have a decent method of getting my guitar *to the PA*. It's usually up to them from there. But you *really need* to get the mic at least close to directly on axis, otherwise your mic is just catching sound going right past and through the mics pickup pattern.

One thing to remember... much of the time your guitar will be brighter and thinner through the PA than you're hearing from stage. And usually this is what’s required, depending on how large the band is you're playing with. Also, I’ve gotten where I don’t let the PA guitar sound and mix situation bother me too much. I’ll do my best, and hope they get it right out front cause there’s simply not a whole lot you can do but take care of your end.

[Yossi]

Originally Posted by theanalogdream

To me the problem first is that you are mic'ing the amp the worst way possible. You want to be able to have it pointed to the appropriate spot in the speaker so that it's not picking up anything from the side or stage...secondly as mentioned before, you are at the mercy of the sound man and the other musicians you play through. At outdoor gigs, there is far more open space, which allows smaller amps to get lost in translation easier..hopefully next time goes a little smoother for you!

Thanks. The next time, I'll at least have my small mic stand and the mike aimed directly at the amp.



Would the mic that I was using be inadequate? What type of mic works best for this application?

[fazendeiro]

Small amps are convenient. That's all. Sometimes I think they have been promoted by evil sound men who just want control over guitarists (who have traditionally been too loud).

"15 watts is all anyone should ever need. We'll just mic it."

Lesson learned. Don't put yourself at the mercy of an unknown sound man.