Console

[wescattle]

I love working with real faders and pans, you know. So I'm wondering, with my digi002 rack what would be a solution for me to use my protools rig, yet mix everything 'physically'. I just hate using the mouse, it looses the feel. How would i go about hooking everything up, and what product would i use? Thanks

[wescattle]

Figured out what might be a solution. Get a 16 track board, and run the outs on all the tracks into the ins on the board. Then run the monitors from the board. Use protools for editing, effects, ect. Now i have a question about that. Say for example i have a vocal track going into input 1 recorded on protools and then i add compression and reverb onto the track on protools. Will the output of input 1, output the audio track with all the added effects?

[jmoose]

Originally Posted by wescattle

Say for example i have a vocal track going into input 1 recorded on protools and then i add compression and reverb onto the track on protools. Will the output of input 1, output the audio track with all the added effects?

Anything that you assign to a given output in Toolz will come out of Toolz on that output... Essentially your talking about using the DAW as a tape machine & submixer which is a GREAT way to work!

Ideally, even if you have 16 outputs from "tape" you'll want more then 16 inputs on the console to allow for effects returns, parallel processing, "live" reamping and other studio magik during the mix. Figure at least 24 inputs...

You'll also find it easier/better & more coheasive to get reverbs & delays from an outboard box rather then plug-ins... even if its just an old Alesis box or whatever in the beginning to get things going.

[SGNick]

Originally Posted by wescattle

I love working with real faders and pans, you know. So I'm wondering, with my digi002 rack what would be a solution for me to use my protools rig, yet mix everything 'physically'. I just hate using the mouse, it looses the feel. How would i go about hooking everything up, and what product would i use? Thanks

I know the Zoom HD16CD can work as an interface for Cubase at least, not sure if it works for others as well.

[Timmylikesthing]

I would suggest a control surface.

I went the physical mix route not too long ago and it's nice but it has it's drawbacks.

The big one being recall. I hated not being able to tweak one thing, or if I got a mix I was certain on, I had to "leave it on the board."

Then there's outboard (I ran a few RNC's and an RNLA, a couple reverbs and an EQ and comp on the 2-bus before sending it back into the computer.

It was a great learning experience, but ultimately, I went back to the mouse.

If you want faders, get a control 8 or something or a Mackie Control Universal and a couple fader extensions.

Tim

[jmoose]

Originally Posted by Timmylikesthing

I went the physical mix route not too long ago and it's nice but it has it's drawbacks.

The big one being recall. I hated not being able to tweak one thing, or if I got a mix I was certain on, I had to "leave it on the board."

Then there's outboard (I ran a few RNC's and an RNLA, a couple reverbs and an EQ and comp on the 2-bus before sending it back into the computer.

What one person calls drawbacks can be anothers advantages...

For one, all the outboard gear. Sorry... plug-ins have come a long way in the last few years but there's still no comparison. I'll take my outboard with tubes & transformers over plugs any day of the week. I use some plugs but the heavy lifting is all stuff that plugs into the wall.

Recall isn't a huge deal if you take notes...

Or you could leave all the faders at unity & mix inside the DAW... that makes recalls really easy and a non-issue. And that's if you even need a recall... the idea is to get it "right" the first time & not even go there.

Personally I think recalls for minor changes, like 1dB vocal rides are a ludicrous waste of time... it all changes a bit in mastering anyway. Better to print a few versions & pick one.

Only recall it if none of 'em are on the money... and if none of 'em were close enough in the first place, why would you want back what you had?

Frankly a large part of the reason I mix on a console is because the DAW doesn't sound that great... console allows me to work faster & get better sounds.

[Timmylikesthing]

Oh I'm not saying that my hardware didn't sound better. It did. Just the cost of getting enough hardware to get a good mix is substantial versus one using plugs.

I think we just happen to be at opposite ends of the spectrum. I'm faster ITB and you are OTB.

I think his answer is a control surface to see if that doesn't quench the fader flames. I'm still jonesing for faders. Next time, I'm going control surface.

Diff'rent Strokes, and all.

[JCM 800]

Using outboard gear with a Pro Tools HD system is fairly common. Most larger studios do that. But he's using LE. Going out of the box and back in is a real pain in the ass because of no ADC in LE. With LE it's best to keep everything in the box once it's been recorded. I use a bunch of preamps and outboard gear as I'm going into PT. Once it's in there, I mix 100% ITB.

My suggestion is a control surface.

[LSchefman]

>>Or you could leave all the faders at unity & mix inside the DAW... that makes recalls really easy and a non-issue. And that's if you even need a recall... the idea is to get it "right" the first time & not even go there.<<

I did that for years, and it worked great. I felt I had the best of both worlds for a long time.

A couple of years ago, I switched to keeping everything in the box, but going to a summing mixer. While this is great, and sounds wonderful, there are things about a large console with lots of options that I miss.

I do think the most recent generation of plugins is much improved, to the point where that's now what I use for nearly everything, including synths and samplers.

But there are still unique-sounding pieces of hardware that aren't modeled well, or that aren't modeled at all, and it is true that you can tell the difference between the typical model and the real thing.

There are some models, however, that do a great job, and that I wouldn't hesitate to use in place of the real thing, even given the choice, but these are very few.

One question, though, is whether you're going to benefit from that very high quality outboard sound using a typical inexpensive analog mixer, and that I doubt based on my own experience trying out inexpensive submixers from the days when I was all-analog and needed extra synth inputs for my large console. The large console simply sounded a lot better. However, that may have changed over the years as well.

[devinb]

My recommendation would be a control surface as well.

On Hardware: Will hardware sound better than the plug-in version of it? In an apples to apples comparison it's certainly possible, but it's also possible it will sound only slightly different, without really being better or worse. Will a plug-in of a great piece of gear beat hardware unit made by Berhinger or the likes? I believe so. On all but the most generous budgets I would use plug-in's in the vast majority of cases.

On Recall: Recall isn't about redoing a mix that's falling short, it's about tweaks. I personally have a hard time believing anyone who is actively involved in mixing would dismiss the revolution that DAW recall is (which is not to say that there weren't forerunners of it). With recall I've saved nearly two dozen versions of a single song, granted that included multiple versions of vocal, guitar and drum tracks...but it also includes new versions with tiny, tiny edits. Maybe adjusting the level of a delay, replacing a single word in the vocals with an alternate take, automating the level on a guitar for a measure or two, slightly adjusting the panning of two vocals, or so on...A person that couldn't benefit from recall in such a way either has amazing monitors in a perfect room to go along with a golden ear, or the ability to accept much more in a mix that could easily be fixed than I can. I personally can fill a small notebook with tweaks I'd like to make on an album over time, and none of those are things that require scrapping the mix and starting over.

[JCM 800]

Another benefit of DAW recall is time and efficiency. Many home recordists don't have the time to mix or even record an entire song in one session. I can work on a song when I have an hour or two, save it, and come back whenever I'm free again. That alone is my favorite thing about the DAW.

[wescattle]

Well i was thinking of keeping all the levels and pans at 0 in ProTools. And doing the mix on an outboard console. The effects (comp, eq, rev ect) would be in the box.

[drfrankencopter]

Originally Posted by jmoose

.

Personally I think recalls for minor changes, like 1dB vocal rides are a ludicrous waste of time... it all changes a bit in mastering anyway. Better to print a few versions & pick one.

Only recall it if none of 'em are on the money... and if none of 'em were close enough in the first place, why would you want back what you had?

Frankly a large part of the reason I mix on a console is because the DAW doesn't sound that great... console allows me to work faster & get better sounds.

Some good stuff in that post Jay!!! It resonates with me, because I'm about to try a big shift in my mixing philosophy.

Typically, a work away at a mix, saving as I go, and keep building the mix. Then I obsessively tweak away at some minor detail, and print a few mixes. Sure enough, when I go back and review them, they all sound pretty much the same. It's like "can't see the forest for the trees".

My plan to combat this is to zero the mix everytime I sit at the DAW, build the mix differently each time (start with the rhythm section one time, build of the vocals another, etc), and to switch songs often. Then, I'll save my mixes (and record my outboard gear settings), and move on. Then, I can collect all these truly different mixes and evaluate them (probably in my car, that's where I like to check mixes) and choose the best overall 'vibe' from which to perform further tweaking. Recall will be handy there.

Another thing to consider is that happy accidents can occure when there's no recall. Sometimes you apply the console/patch bay settings from a soneg you just finished to a new one, and brand new sounds, and ideas emerge. Serendipity, it can happen....or sometimes it will just be a big mess!

Cheers

Kris

[loudboy]

Originally Posted by wescattle

Well i was thinking of keeping all the levels and pans at 0 in ProTools. And doing the mix on an outboard console. The effects (comp, eq, rev ect) would be in the box.

In order to gain any real sonic benefit, you've got to have at least 16 discrete outs, good D/A converters and a console that's several steps above what you'll find at GC.

I tried it w/8, and it didn't really sound any better at all.

Another issue you'll run into when using a console for summing is that if you have some hardware, like a comp/limiter, you can't do any volume rides in the computer, as it will just effect the input of the comp, not the level of the output. So you'll still need to ride faders on those channels.

I'd probably concentrate on optimizing your ITB skills, and get a few pieces of choice outboard to use on the way in.

[jmoose]

You've just listed every single reason I hate DAW's & unlimited recall...

Originally Posted by devinb

With recall I've saved nearly two dozen versions of a single song, granted that included multiple versions of vocal, guitar and drum tracks...but it also includes new versions with tiny, tiny edits. Maybe adjusting the level of a delay, replacing a single word in the vocals with an alternate take, automating the level on a guitar for a measure or two, slightly adjusting the panning of two vocals, or so on...A person that couldn't benefit from recall in such a way either has amazing monitors in a perfect room to go along with a golden ear, or the ability to accept much more in a mix that could easily be fixed than I can. I personally can fill a small notebook with tweaks I'd like to make on an album over time, and none of those are things that require scrapping the mix and starting over.

Minuscule tweaks like those are usually a complete waste of time. If you're gonna make a change, then make a CHANGE!!! Like I said before, pulling a mix back to adjust the level of reverb or something on the first bar of a solo is a waste... because by the time its mastered that balance will have changed in a much more dramatic fashion.

The endless recall ability is also the main reason that some records either never get finished or go WAY over budget, which to a certain point is fine with me so long as the checks don't bounce... hehehe

Last year I had a record released that was almost three years in the making... partly because of the endless edits & re-edits. And it wasn't the first and it won't be the last. And every time it happens the artists end up really frustrated because they wrote the songs so long ago & have moved past that point artistially with new material... and yet they're still sweating minor stuff... things that the average listener doesn't notice or even care about.

When John Siket mixed all those Phish records like Farmhouse... he'd just do a few mixes & the guys would pick one. If it was way off they'd pull it back and do another.

Guys like Brendon O'Brien & CLA... once they get dug in they'll knock off a song or two songs a day on average. At some point you need to get past the fact that it'll never be "perfect" and move onto different art.

I used to have a fader pack on my DAW... sold it & now have a Presonus faderport which is fine. But I'd rather mix on a desk... besides the actual sonics of the desk you need to think about what'll allow you to mix better.

When I'm ITB there's a lot of things that just can't be done... and I end up thinking about how to solve some sort of technical problem rather then actually mixing. And that always distracts & takes something away from the mix at hand...

As for cost of plug ins vs. hardware... well... yeah... that's certainly a factor. But how many people have several thousand or more invested in plugs???

And will any of those plugs that work on your computer now, still work in a few years? The answer is not many... not many at all. Meanwhile I know guys that bought hardware back in the '70s and the stuff's still making noise...