TGP Collective Super Chops Thread (Course Started 02/01/2010)

[DQuinlan]

I like the quote "Think of this program as training with the Chicago Bears, as compared to joining a health spa".

I'm in. I am a crap player, so it will be interesting to see the difference it makes to my playing. I will post weekly recordings and/or youtube vids to chart progress (or lack thereof).

Great idea Dave.

[dkaplowitz]

Glad to see some people signing on! I'm looking forward to it!

I practiced playing those chord voicings last night. Ouch! My hands are so out of shape! I remember one of the hardest parts being actually playing those chords for 10 minutes without screwing up! It looks like in the first few weeks at least I'm going to have to tack on learning the voicings for the coming week at the end of the practice session as well. I guess within a few weeks, they'll all seem fairly easy (I hope!).

I also checked out his example solo for week one, which had some nice ideas in it. I'll try to post any analysis I can come up with to help people with directions (and to help myself because I forget so easily) to take while playing over these progressions. He encourages people to listen to the progressions before playing them and try to map out a simple melody to focus on while playing over the changes.


Dave

[blue_lu]

I will definately do the course this year. I am working at getting my act together a little more. february sounds good.

[hangten]

clint is a tasty player ~ hadn't seen these ACL clips in a while...
love the solo in the 2nd clip, plus he's rockin' a peavey!

[jimfog]

Originally Posted by hangten

clint is a tasty player ~ hadn't seen these ACL clips in a while...
love the solo in the 2nd clip, plus he's rockin' a peavey!

Forget the PV.

I want Norm Hamlett's HAIR!!!

[dsimon665]

I'm on week 2 of this course. The voicings are pretty tough for me - root position low on the neck and stretchy chords like that...and also some voicings I haven't played before. So there are some chords that are just uncomfortable but easy to read...and there are some chords that are easy to play but harder to read.

It took me quite a while to get to where I can record the progression. I'd say week two I spent about 2+ hours total on just getting the voicings down. Those 2 hours are not part of the course either (you only spend 10 min / day on chords). It is a good idea to start looking at the next weeks chart ahead of time.

For the 8th notes, the approach I have been taking so far is 'key centered' - using major diatonic and pentatonic scales for each key (and minor pentatonic for the one minor key in the wk 1 and 2 tune). I have been sticking with one position for each of the 10 min takes. So for example if first key is Bb I might sick with the 6th fret position...and then when modulating to Eb I would stay at the 6th fret position (and each subsequent key keeping to the same general area of the fretboard). Then on the next take move up to the 8th fret position for Bb....and so on practicing each of the CAGED type scale configurations. (so my total practice time/day was more than the 50 min).

Eventually I want to try other approaches like chord tones, and licks (as opposed to 'scalar')...so far I've learned a lot about the scale positions and keys I wasn't use to playing in before...and touched on a lot of other things too like keeping a line going across a modulation. It doesn't hurt to practice reading either.

[dkaplowitz]

Originally Posted by dsimon665

I'm on week 2 of this course. The voicings are pretty tough for me - root position low on the neck and stretchy chords like that...and also some voicings I haven't played before. So there are some chords that are just uncomfortable but easy to read...and there are some chords that are easy to play but harder to read.

It took me quite a while to get to where I can record the progression. I'd say week two I spent about 2+ hours total on just getting the voicings down. Those 2 hours are not part of the course either (you only spend 10 min / day on chords). It is a good idea to start looking at the next weeks chart ahead of time.

For the 8th notes, the approach I have been taking so far is 'key centered' - using major diatonic and pentatonic scales for each key (and minor pentatonic for the one minor key in the wk 1 and 2 tune). I have been sticking with one position for each of the 10 min takes. So for example if first key is Bb I might sick with the 6th fret position...and then when modulating to Eb I would stay at the 6th fret position (and each subsequent key keeping to the same general area of the fretboard). Then on the next take move up to the 8th fret position for Bb....and so on practicing each of the CAGED type scale configurations. (so my total practice time/day was more than the 50 min).

Eventually I want to try other approaches like chord tones, and licks (as opposed to 'scalar')...so far I've learned a lot about the scale positions and keys I wasn't use to playing in before...and touched on a lot of other things too like keeping a line going across a modulation. It doesn't hurt to practice reading either.

Great work! Good luck with the course. Please keep us updated on your progress. It's an inspiration to be sure.

And thanks for the tips! I know for sure the one about studying the chords (and I'd imagine the song forms, with the D.C. Al Capo, 1st and 2nd endings, etc. which people who don't read a lot will find confusing) ahead of time will help a lot of people.

Dave

[travisvwright]

Perhaps I'm not ready for this. So please take a walk through my brain and give it to me straight. I read the entire introduction then get to week 1-A. Look at the Clef and have to stir some of the old brains that used this stuff into the active mix. Here's what I think:

Frist chord BbMa7 ("B Flat Major Seventh") Low note is a Bb 6 on low E, then an F 8 on A string, then A 7 on D, then D 7 on G. So I've got

x
x
7
7
8
6

That took 4 minutes and I got the first chord figured out. There are 39 chords on the page so in 2 hours and 36 minutes I should be able to work them all out. Yeah I know this will get easier.

But wait let's look at this from a non Jazz non classical non treble clef angle. If someone handed me a lead sheet with BbM7 written at the top (BTW I assume he is using MA for major and MI for minor where I would normally use M and m respectively correctt?) I would throw my midle finger on the Bb start counting to 7 as I play:

 
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
--------------
--------------
--------------
----------5-7-
----5-6-8-----
6-8-----------

Then barre an E form Bb and re finger it to add a 7 on the D string (depending I may more may not even notice that it's an A). Total time 7 seconds to find the 7th, 6 more to refinger the barrechord - 13 seconds. At 39 chords we're looking at 8.5 minutes, this I can handle.

Now without thinking I know I can play an Am7 shape on the 5th fret Barre to get an Dm7. Fm7 again I'll just pull off my pinky from the Barre etc. But I worry I'm cheating and should work it out note for note like I did with the BbM7, Or more importantly I'll miss out on learning the new/correct voicing. What do you say to this part?

Then with the actual improvising. All 8th notes? I can't hold a tension not as a quarter note or add a chromatic 16th between two? That is probably going to be the hardest part for me. We spend so much time working on "Feel" and playing with "Air" and "expressing" "swing" "breathing" etc. It almost feels backwards to just play 8th notes. Is that really what you're supposed to do with this?

Anyway I don't know that I'll join you all I would love to but I'm a bit overwhelmed. Hopefully even if this post doesn't end up causing me to do this it will help some others who are unsure to spark the discussion and learning.

[spencerbk]

Originally Posted by travisvwright

That took 4 minutes and I got the first chord figured out. There are 39 chords on the page so in 2 hours and 36 minutes I should be able to work them all out. Yeah I know this will get easier.

You also just learned a shape that works for all 12 major seventh chords with a root on the E string. Lower the A to Ab and you've got a shape that works for 12 dominant seventh chords. From there, lower the D to Db and now you've got a shape for 12 minor 7th chords. 4 minutes for one chord and 5 minutes for 36 ...

It's not easy, but it gets easier fast.

I believe the strategy behind the stream of 8th notes and triplets is that, by cultivating the ability to improvise continuous streams of notes for 10 minutes (especially as the tempos get up there), it should become exponentially easier to play with space and sustained notes at the same tempo later. Limit yourself in practice to force the ability to be able to generate more material than you'll ever need ...

[dkaplowitz]

Originally Posted by travisvwright

Frist chord BbMa7 ("B Flat Major Seventh") Low note is a Bb 6 on low E, then an F 8 on A string, then A 7 on D, then D 7 on G. So I've got

x
x
7
7
8
6

Cool voicing to know, except, you see that little (5) beneath the Bb (bass note) of that chord on the chart? That means he's recommending you play it on the 5th string, not the 6th, i.e.:

x
3
2
3
1
x

I think you'll find that voicing a little easier to finger, and it sounds a little better to my ears, but tastes vary. And you've just learned how to move a block voicing from one set of 4 strings to the next! Now try it on the next set of strings!

Good luck!

Dave

P.S. I know it's frustrating to read something like this (with so much chromaticism) if you're not used to reading. It'll make your trip through the course a lot harder. But believe me when I tell you it gets better/easier if you keep at it. And you'll definitely improve your overall musicianship by doing it.

[Bluespicker]

Originally Posted by dkaplowitz

Cool voicing to know, except, you see that little (5) beneath the Bb (bass note) of that chord on the chart? That means he's recommending you play it on the 5th string, not the 6th, i.e.:

x
3
2
3
1
x

I think you'll find that voicing a little easier to finger, and it sounds a little better to my ears, but tastes vary. And you've just learned how to move a block voicing from one set of 4 strings to the next! Now try it on the next set of strings!

Good luck!

Dave

P.S. I know it's frustrating to read something like this (with so much chromaticism) if you're not used to reading. It'll make your trip through the course a lot harder. But believe me when I tell you it gets better/easier if you keep at it. And you'll definitely improve your overall musicianship by doing it.

I've been meaning to ask what that is, so I am glad you already answered for me!

Originally Posted by dkaplowitz

What I did when I first took the course on way back was to just sit down with a page of blank chord diagrams and populate them with the chords from each week. It took a while, but I got into a groove after a little while. Then I had a nice chart of all the chords without having to worry about doing any reading.

Dave

I've been doing just that. I think it will really help, plus I have a horrible memory for chords so it will be nice to have a book of voiceings.

Concerning the "key center" approach, and I warn you I have only skimmed the first chapter so I need to really read it, do you mean that over 2 or 3 chords functioning as the 6th in a tune in "A" you could just play C minor tones/scales? Or is that totally wrong?

[dkaplowitz]

Originally Posted by travisvwright

But wait let's look at this from a non Jazz non classical non treble clef angle. If someone handed me a lead sheet with BbM7 written at the top (BTW I assume he is using MA for major and MI for minor where I would normally use M and m respectively correctt?) I would throw my midle finger on the Bb start counting to 7 as I play:

 
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
--------------
--------------
--------------
----------5-7-
----5-6-8-----
6-8-----------

Then barre an E form Bb and re finger it to add a 7 on the D string (depending I may more may not even notice that it's an A). Total time 7 seconds to find the 7th, 6 more to refinger the barrechord - 13 seconds. At 39 chords we're looking at 8.5 minutes, this I can handle.

Now without thinking I know I can play an Am7 shape on the 5th fret Barre to get an Dm7. Fm7 again I'll just pull off my pinky from the Barre etc. But I worry I'm cheating and should work it out note for note like I did with the BbM7, Or more importantly I'll miss out on learning the new/correct voicing. What do you say to this part?

Perhaps I'm not following you correctly. It sounds like you are treating each chord distinctly in your approach and scales is your primary tool. This works, but it's a lot more work for you. See his introductory notes on the key center approach. If you figure out the chord's relationship to the key, you can just play in whatever key the chord is in (he helps you by bracketing the key center over the chart, so you can just focus on playing in that key for that section of the progression). Of course you want to be aware of chord tones and use them, but with so many chords/key changes, you might want to mix things up a little and make it easier on yourself.

Arpeggios/triads can help a lot too, and so can using various pentatonics over all these chords (there are at least a couple pentatonics you can use over every chord in this progression, and ones that will work over all/most of them in a given key).

Originally Posted by travisvwright

Then with the actual improvising. All 8th notes? I can't hold a tension not as a quarter note or add a chromatic 16th between two? That is probably going to be the hardest part for me. We spend so much time working on "Feel" and playing with "Air" and "expressing" "swing" "breathing" etc. It almost feels backwards to just play 8th notes. Is that really what you're supposed to do with this?

Read his introductory notes for the reason why this is recommended. This is a program of drills focused on the improvisor. It's not a recommendation for how you should play when you're not practicing. In short, he is teaching you to rely on the strength of your melodic thinking instead of relying on devices like inflection, bending, space, syncopation, etc. So it's really more of an exercise/training than it is real music. The thinking is that creativity thrives when there are limitations (if I read him correctly). Of course you'll want to make your 8th-note playing as musical as possible, but if it sounds exercise-y in the beginning, I wouldn't worry.

Hope the info helps. I understand if the course seems daunting. It's a real challenge (and I'd imagine even for seasoned improvisers this is so). If you're not ready now, you can try again later. You've got the book, so maybe it's something to work toward. There's nothing wrong with that! Or maybe it's just not an approach/discipline you'd care to work on. That's cool too.

Good luck!

Dave

[travisvwright]

Ok I'm now cool with the 8th notes just more expressing what difficulty that's going to be.

I'll take the rest in turn as I'm not yet discouraged.

Spencerbk's post. In the next section of my post I show I already knew the shape. If you tell me play a BbM7 I can figure it in just a few seconds if I don't have it in memory. Which also sort of responds to...

DK. The section you quoted wasn't in reference to scales or improvising. I was trying to explain the other (cheating perhaps) faster way I would figure out how to play a BbM7. Find the 7 then force it into an E shaped Barre Chord. With my Tab I was trying to show that my idea of a 7 is shape based not alphabet based. I didn't think Bb hmm the 7 would be an A. I thought Bb whole whole half whole whole whole !stop! this is the 7.

So my question I guess is if I ignore all of the Clef and just play a BbM7 Dm7 Fm7 etc. Will I be missing out on the important stuff or focusing on the important stuff do you think?

Socratic I may have failed to show it but the only thing I couldn't do in reading the music was know that the circled 5 meant to build my chord on the 5th string instead of the 6th. I can read it(well maybe work it out would be a better way to say it) just not swiftly.

Also it's not that I can't or refuse to learn to do it swiftly. It's more that I have no use for that in my current playing conditions and styles. If I wanted sheet music 99% of the time I'd have to write it out myself just to get it. That would be like learning a Klingon in my current life. I didn't think that instant sight reading was the purpose of this course and if it is then I am wasting my time.

[nolenuttt]

Dave-Count me in-Just saw this thread, and I'm web surfing in the UK, but when I get back (Saturday), I'm in! need to buy a couple of things i should have bought long ago, anyway....

[Dickie Fredericks]

I have the HR book and its an awesome study for sure. I actually have it and have paged through some of it and played a bit of it but never finished it.

I should make it a 2010 challenge for myself.