Magic Dust the Two Rock killer?

[Steve Snider]

Originally Posted by Dave_C

Actually, it's cool to say whatever you want to say as long as it meets forum rules. (BTW, the only person who's broken those rules so far is an adamant TR defender!) Nonetheless, if you don't like it, don't read it. We're simply pondering the market and sharing opinons here, not telling anybody what to buy or that they're idiots for buying a certain brand. You're forcing yourself to read way more into statements than what actually exists.

In my case, you keep overlooking the fact that I own a VERY expensive 2-channel PCB Fuchs amp but love it and have even considered buying a TR in the past. So, I'd be slagging myself if what you said is true! As I said before, my purchases land me into just about every camp there is...from the $1150 I spent on the Maz 18 NR head to the roughly $4300 I have into Fuchs at this point. Heck, I just spent $150 on a 4-button Artist footswitch for this amp today, as a matter of fact! Does that make me an idiot? Of course not! I do think that $150 for a few switches in a metal can is kinda' nutty, but I also understand all the market/business forces that play into it. That's the kind of stuff we're talking about.

All these manufactures make great amps. You want to talk about specific attributes you like about each amp by each manufacture, I would consider that a good post and something everyone benefits from.

I can talk about some beautiful PTP amps which sucked tonally but would never do that here as it is my opinion and not fact and I would not want to harm any builder.

The fact is they are all good and none will appeal to all nor is any a better value for everyone as it may not deliver the tones and feel each one of us likes.

I have no problem with you at all Dave but I don't like the delivery at times. You are certainly entitled so my bad for slagging you.

[sketches]

What an interesting thread. All this money talk goes way over my head but one interesting fact I've encountered is that when there's enough amps in circulation (because GAS wouldn't be GAS without a seller) people tend to stop buying new. When they do that, depending on how long the stock waits, they decline in price (all at once one would assume if we're talking about the built up stock from a decline in new sales) and therefor bring the market price down with it...

So in the end, true prices usually reflect themselves... in my eyes, anyway. Scarcity is what drives up prices and also makes us GAS for it in the first place.

A cruel and vicious cycle (that sounds, looks, plays, smells and feels awesome!!!).

[nickyjoe]

Not everyone in the arts - entertainment industry - does it for the money. I'm sure some amp / guitar builders fall into the same category too. Leo Fender, Jim Marshall, and Randy Smith didn't start their biz in a big factory. I've yet to see Fuchs or Boogie making the $99 practice amp either... I hope I never do either, but I wouldn't bash 'em if they did... it's THEIR business. BTW...Who's not got blown away with a great player... armed with a "production amp and guitar...pedal too" and they play their ass off.

[TopDog]

Originally Posted by Dave_C

I dunno', Tag owned a great Dumble and probably owned and raved about the Type 3 nailing RF tones for the longest period of time of any of his amps. I just think they have a really nice, fluid, smooth OD tone, but I never said they nailed any particular Dumble tone. Where'd you get that from? I've never plugged into one, but can only comment on the nice clips I've heard of them

As for TR gutshots, I'm simply sharing, as a potential customer of theirs, what has prevented me from considering buying another one in the past. When you pay over $5K for an amp, you want the build to be at least as solid and reliable as Henry's $2.7K build! I'm allowed to share these opinions. Over time, and I mentioned this, it seems TR has indeed cleaned up their builds, so it's probably no longer an issue.

But, why are you ignoring my raves over the tone of several TR models I've heard and focusing only on the negative comments? Can't you do a balanced analysis?

Dave,

Sorry for not replying to you sooner....

You said these were D-style amps in your post. I was unable hear your few raves about some TR amps because your negative comments were drowning them out. And does it really matter what some builders charge unless you're the one spending the money? Perhaps my Mercedes/Honda analogy was not the best but let's compare it to watches...

Rolex-Omega-Citizen-Timex-Casio-Swatch.....

They all keep time...right? Yet do guys who buy a Rolex or Omega get slammed for dropping several K on one?

[Fuchsaudio]

I once played a Two-Rock Jade (their one and only all-PCB amp), and liked it a bunch.
I think many guys like Gary and I (for starters) have made the pxb/non pcb differences nebulous at this point. A well designed PCB with heavy traces, thick copper, and proper layout will do just fine folks.

Dave: Tag always defaults to a different argument, when he's not winning the one he jumped into....it's like when a magician uses misdirection to pull off an impossible trick..

[Tag]

[QUOTE=Dave_C;8681745]

Hey, if PCB ruins tone, it ruins tone...especially if it's the HRM tonestack...one of THE most sensitive tone-shaping parts of the amp!

Stretching to the max.

Point is, PCB is neutral.

Disagree. IMO, it gives a thinner, brighter tone.

There's nothing special about PTP.

Disagree. Warmer and fuller tones.

[Dave_C]

Originally Posted by Steve Snider

All these manufactures make great amps. You want to talk about specific attributes you like about each amp by each manufacture, I would consider that a good post and something everyone benefits from.

I can talk about some beautiful PTP amps which sucked tonally but would never do that here as it is my opinion and not fact and I would not want to harm any builder.

The fact is they are all good and none will appeal to all nor is any a better value for everyone as it may not deliver the tones and feel each one of us likes.

I have no problem with you at all Dave but I don't like the delivery at times. You are certainly entitled so my bad for slagging you.

Steve,

I agree it can be a fine line between harming the business of good, hard-working people and also sharing useful information. I guess what I'm saying is that TGP wouldn't be a very informative resource if nobody ever talked cons. How many times have we read about folks buying into the hype about product XYZ, only to find out later that it was totally unsuitable for them because of something that the people hyping it failed to mention for fear of pissing off the guy that made it for them?

Dave

[Dave_C]

Originally Posted by TopDog

Dave,

Sorry for not replying to you sooner....

You said these were D-style amps in your post. I was unable hear your few raves about some TR amps because your negative comments were drowning them out. And does it really matter what some builders charge unless you're the one spending the money? Perhaps my Mercedes/Honda analogy was not the best but let's compare it to watches...

Rolex-Omega-Citizen-Timex-Casio-Swatch.....

They all keep time...right? Yet do guys who buy a Rolex or Omega get slammed for dropping several K on one?

I'm not sure. I've never been to a watch forum.

[Dave_C]

Originally Posted by Fuchsaudio

I once played a Two-Rock Jade (their one and only all-PCB amp), and liked it a bunch.
I think many guys like Gary and I (for starters) have made the pxb/non pcb differences nebulous at this point. A well designed PCB with heavy traces, thick copper, and proper layout will do just fine folks.

Well, exactly. Conversely, I think my Fuchs has more of all those high end audiophile goodies we all talk about than at least a couple of my current PTP amps...but I'm not attributing that to the fact that it's PCB. It's obviously because Andy Fuchs touched it!

Another way to look at it. If some of those incredibly sloppy, break-almost-every-layout-rule-in-the-book PTP Two-Rock and Bruno amps we've all seen gutshots of can sound REALLY great, what principle of electronics dictates that a neat, clean, high quality PCB layout with the same high quality components will NOT sound great?

Originally Posted by Fuchsaudio

Dave: Tag always defaults to a different argument, when he's not winning the one he jumped into....it's like when a magician uses misdirection to pull off an impossible trick..

Bait and switch! We know we're just bustin' your balls, Tag.

Andy, thanks for taking all this pricing talk for what it is and not getting too hot about it. I know what it takes to do what you do and provide the level of support you do...and to do it all in a state like NJ! I think one point I missed earlier is that you and Two-Rock are both fully staffed, quick delivery, high volume (at least for boutique stuff) builders with extensive support and staffing overhead. Your prices are higher than the smaller builders who don't have all that overhead (makes sense) and TR's prices are higher yet because they layer the PTP labor on top of all *that* (makes sense).

[Dave_C]

Originally Posted by ToneGurus

Oh good. So now Two-Rock's prices are no longer "inflated" as per your previous post. "Inflated" intended by you to mean, "jacked up for no good reason." Thanks for clearing that up.

Mike

Well, I still have some trouble the $10K level stuff, but hey, who am I to have an opinion? However, I think that's the whole purpose of having these discussions. Personally, I learn something new every time and almost always adjust a knob on my amp or in my head as a result. It's called growing.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by Dave_C

Bait and switch! We know we're just bustin' your balls, Tag.

Fine, but I am not busting yours. PCB is inferior tonally IMO.

[Tom Gross]

[QUOTE=FlyingVBlues;8679887]

Originally Posted by Tag

Tag,

I got to play though Sean Curtin's Skrydstrup at a small Tonefest at his house where we A/B'd it with a very good 70's Dumble. It was at least as good sounding as the Dumble, and perhaps even a bit better. And it was basically impossible to tell the 2 amps apart when you listened to them blind. I don't think that particular amp would be a good fit for your style of playing, but I think you would appreciate the amp anyway because it was so close to the Dumble. It copped the early Dumble David Lindley and Lowell George tones rather than the RF tones that you like. I don't know if the Skrydstrup can be voiced for Larry Carlton/Robben Ford type tones, but it was one excellent sounding amp and responded to the playing of the guitarist exactly like the Dumble did.

FVB

I have played through both Sean's Skrydstrup & one owned by Mike Roberts, and found that they got that singing violin Dumble tone excellently. The Bludo I played recently got there wonderfully as well.

[BobbyRay]

Originally Posted by trap

sorry, but i think it's tacky to sit back and decide what other businesses should charge for their services. you guys never owned you own business have you? i have. it costs a lot! employees cost a fortune in overhead. if and when henry gets big enough and assumes those costs his prices will reflect that. fuchs and two rock do that already. i have never slagged another company on TGP for it's prices. you guys have done that . dave c most of all. so don't sit back now like your all laid back and it's cool after the comments were made. it's not cool!

Yup! Just look at Dr Z. Has a shop with employess and..er...Wait a minute...His amps are still priced reasonably relatively speaking. Hmmm.

[Yossi]

Pricing a great amp too low, can cause an endless backlog of orders. Take the Xits-10 for example. They were so good and so relatively cheap when introduced, that they got too many orders. The choices are too either raise the price to the point where the demand decreases to the point where production can bear, or to increase the production to meet the demand. Or do nothing, and reach a point where people will no longer wait for an amp. If an amp was priced too high then nobody would buy it. That's why it's not a fault of a manufacture who charges a very high price for an amp. It may just be the "fault" of the buyer, who pays that much.

[Dave_C]

Originally Posted by Tag

Fine, but I am not busting yours. PCB is inferior tonally IMO.

You're dead wrong, but you're entitled to your beliefs.