the elusive trey style

[jroot]

Hey

I really like the lead style of trey anastasio from phish. I also like many of the other jam band type players. They seem to meld the blues, bluegrass, country, rock, and the kitchen sink together, to form great lead lines and melodies. They also seem to use modal scales over one or two chord vamps at times.

I am a box/scale player and have a very hard time thinking across the neck. I have come to know licks in different positions, and fall to using these every time I jam/solo. In 23 years I have learned a lot of these licks, and can play them well, yet I can't seem to construct a proper solo or get to the type of freedom of the neck I aspire to. It has made my playing one dimensional and left me feeling uninspired.

I have quite a few DVD lessons from various styles. It seems they all have examples and exercises that are probably great tools if you know how to apply them correctly. I seem to have a problem taking examples and applying them in an actual solo form with my band.

I can emulate blues guys licks but with trey's style it is so different.
There doesn't seem to be much instruction out there on this style of playing.

Please help me out of this trap. Thanks

[Tomo]

Originally Posted by jroot

Hey

I really like the lead style of trey anastasio from phish. I also like many of the other jam band type players. They seem to meld the blues, bluegrass, country, rock, and the kitchen sink together, to form great lead lines and melodies. They also seem to use modal scales over one or two chord vamps at times.

I am a box/scale player and have a very hard time thinking across the neck. I have come to know licks in different positions, and fall to using these every time I jam/solo. In 23 years I have learned a lot of these licks, and can play them well, yet I can't seem to construct a proper solo or get to the type of freedom of the neck I aspire to. It has made my playing one dimensional and left me feeling uninspired.

I have quite a few DVD lessons from various styles. It seems they all have examples and exercises that are probably great tools if you know how to apply them correctly. I seem to have a problem taking examples and applying them in an actual solo form with my band.

I can emulate blues guys licks but with trey's style it is so different.
There doesn't seem to be much instruction out there on this style of playing.

Please help me out of this trap. Thanks

I think Trey's biggest influence was Joe Pass. Work on harmony by your ears and away from visual aspect of playing. Connection between your lines and chord changes. It's nice to study triads etc. Learn approach instead of any licks, shapes, any instant stuff. Make a good plan. Soloing is like a good travel. If don't play well, no gas, no food!

Tomo

[gratephulred]

I always hear a lot Santana and Allman Bros in his tone and phrasing, and Jerry or Zappa for that exploratory aspect that makes Phish unique.

At its very simplest, you'll find Trey/Phish makes extensive use of Dorian for minor songs (Antelope, David Bowie, Mikes Song, etc.) and Mixolydian for major jams (Down with Disease, Limb by Limb). These modes are often the foundation of the jam, which might then go any number of directions.

Of course a lot of chromaticism/passing tones, pentatonics, blues scale thrown in for good measure with his style of phrasing giving that recognizable sound (some of us) really love!

[Phalanx200bc]

Not a fan of the jamband style....but if you are looking to break out of a rut and the stuck in a box/scale trap try this......



or at least youtube him to see if that style (intevallic playing) appeals to you.

have fun....

Whatever you do avoid that chromatic asending triplets/triads stuff up the neck to the highest note and holding it long enough for everyone to start spinning around.

[zestystrat]

Originally Posted by Tomo

I think Trey's biggest influence was Joe Pass.

Interesting. I've never heard JP's name in any Trey discussion.

I know the big three for him were Jerry, Zappa and Hendrix. I also hear a Pat Metheney influence too.

[gomez1856]

Originally Posted by Phalanx200bc

Not a fan of the jamband style....but if you are looking to break out of a rut and the stuck in a box/scale trap try this......



or at least youtube him to see if that style (intevallic playing) appeals to you.

have fun....

Whatever you do avoid that chromatic asending triplets/triads stuff up the neck to the highest note and holding it long enough for everyone to start spinning around.

Can't agree with this more. Great great book and it definitely goes a long way towards breaking you out of that rut.

[Tomo]

Originally Posted by zestystrat

Interesting. I've never heard JP's name in any Trey discussion.

I know the big three for him were Jerry, Zappa and Hendrix. I also hear a Pat Metheney influence too.

I read his interview a few times and I could hear that from Trey. Very nice.

Tomo

[Buddy Boy]

As Tomo said "connection between scales and chords".

Andre Segovia's "Diatonic Major and Minor Scales" teaches how to achieve this in totally useful ways.

[zestystrat]

Originally Posted by Tomo

I read his interview a few times and I could hear that from Trey. Very nice.

Tomo

Cool! If you have a link to it I'd love to read it.

I love reading those types of things - what they learned from a player and how they assimilated it into their style….

[jcground]

While I had never heard Joe Pass listed specifically as one of Trey's influences, I won't disagree with Tomo.

Hendrix and Zappa both had very adventurous style for rock players, and Jerry certainly incorporated a lot of bluegrass and non-traditional rock influences in his playing too.

To me the big deal about Phish, and Trey in particular, is that they incorporate much more of a jazz influence than any other jam band that got big. It's funny to me that I know huge Phish fans who say they don't like jazz, and when I saw them live I would always think how jazzy their style was - especially the way they improv.

If you're not big on theory, but prefer to pick things up by listening to music, try listening to more jazzy stuff. In addition to Joe Pass and Pat Metheny, I'd recommend checking out some Larry Carlton. Trey reminds me of Carlton from time to time. (Carlton of course also played with Steely Dan, another rock band that incorporates obvious jazzy elements in their playing.)

[kludge]

LICKS. ARE. THE. ENEMY.

Freedom of the neck is only part of it. The reason the great long-form improvisors are great isn't because they play well, but because they structure well. They're not thinking of the next beat or the next bar, they're thinking of the next movement. Their improvisations (I hate to call them "solos" have a sense of direction, a clear beginning and end, climaxes and conclusions, plot twists and surprises. Licks are called "phrases" for a reason. Trey ain't giving us phrases, he's giving us short stories, even novellas. Same is true of Jerry, or Frank Zappa, or Miles Davis, or any of the other masters of long-form jamming improvisation.

Freedom of the neck isn't an end in itself. It's a means to an end, which in this case is the ability to improvise in larger forms. Each area of the neck has its own tones and its own possibilities, things that can't necessarily be played elsewhere (for example, open strings in the first few frets, or large intervals on a single string high up the neck).

Personally, when entering an improvisational space longer than a couple of bars, I try to think of "beginning" and "end". My own take (and this is MY opinion) is that what you play at the beginning and what you play at the end is more important than what you play in the middle. The first note(s) should establish a tone and attitude, and the final notes offer a climax and conclusion. If I'm doing good, I'll establish an interesting rhythmic/melodic motif early on that I can repeat and revise as I play.

Going back to my comment that "licks are the enemy"... that's too strong. Licks can be a useful tool, because they're memorized and you don't have to think much to play them. A well-placed lick can buy you a bar or two to gather your thoughts for the next move, and a familiar riff can provide a landmark for listeners to follow. But they're just a tool! Don't let licks be the ONLY thing you play, because licks don't GO anywhere. They don't lead to the next idea, they don't send you farther down the road. If you rely on licks, you don't have structure, and without structure, you can't play anything meaningful in the longer form.

The only valid reason in my world for a three-minute guitar solo is to play out an idea that takes three full minutes to express.

[kludge]

As for useful practice... I learned a lot from Mick Goodrick's The Advancing Guitarist, especially "The Science of the Unitar". He recommends practicing scales and melodic motion on a single string, up and down the neck. Then practice on two strings, then on three, etc. This will get you out of the box! Try playing simple melodies you know really well, like "Happy Birthday" or "Auld Lang Syne", on just one or two strings. This will force you into along-the-neck melodic behavior.

[Lambone]

here are a couple vids worth watching:
http://theartoftrey.blogspot.com/2010/07/lesson-3.html

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYWSTuxmOs4

I'm no expert, but I can tell you Trey has a lot of little tricks in his bag that define his style. for instance bending up to root notes, sliding into notes, chromatic runs, modal playing obviously...he also plays a lot of inverted chords and triads and lets Mike hit the low end roots.

[Tomo]

Originally Posted by jcground

While I had never heard Joe Pass listed specifically as one of Trey's influences, I won't disagree with Tomo.

Hendrix and Zappa both had very adventurous style for rock players, and Jerry certainly incorporated a lot of bluegrass and non-traditional rock influences in his playing too.

To me the big deal about Phish, and Trey in particular, is that they incorporate much more of a jazz influence than any other jam band that got big. It's funny to me that I know huge Phish fans who say they don't like jazz, and when I saw them live I would always think how jazzy their style was - especially the way they improv.

If you're not big on theory, but prefer to pick things up by listening to music, try listening to more jazzy stuff. In addition to Joe Pass and Pat Metheny, I'd recommend checking out some Larry Carlton. Trey reminds me of Carlton from time to time. (Carlton of course also played with Steely Dan, another rock band that incorporates obvious jazzy elements in their playing.)

Years ago, I started to hear about Phish, beacuse a lot of my Berklee students asked me how to play like Trey. So I read it somewhere. Then I was working on some minor bluesy tune.. those lines were just like Joe Pass style, I mean good jazz line. Larry Carlton studied with Joe Pass, so I did too. I always big fan figuring out each artist 's childhood listening influences.
Theory is not so important. Listening good music!

Tomo

[zestystrat]

While I had never heard Joe Pass listed specifically as one of Trey's influences, I won't disagree with Tomo.

FWIW, I wasn't. I hadn't heard it either.

Since I have been listening to them / going to shows since the Wetlands days I find this to be an interesting insight from someone who probably has the best ears of anyone who has posted in this thread.

*slings off to dig up some Joe Pass*