Just because you don't have a lot of chops doesn't mean you're not self indulgent...

[DC1]

I knew that would make some folks uncomfortable, but sorry, it's true. If you don't reach the people who pay you, you are failing at your art and your business.

Oh, and I have seen bar patrons go apesh*t over guitar playing they love.

Remember Albert Collins?

He did it pretty much every night.


dc

[SyKrash]

Both chops or lack of chops is not equal to musicality/soul/feel/whatever period.

[Gas-man]

Originally Posted by DC1

I knew that would make some folks uncomfortable, but sorry, it's true. If you don't reach the people who pay you, you are failing at your art and your business.

Oh, and I have seen bar patrons go apesh*t over guitar playing they love.

Remember Albert Collins?

He did it pretty much every night.


dc

Total apples and oranges.

Albert Collins was a legendary, touring guitar player who played to 80% other guitar players every night. I saw him too.

[zztomato]

Originally Posted by DC1

I knew that would make some folks uncomfortable, but sorry, it's true. If you don't reach the people who pay you, you are failing at your art and your business.

Oh, and I have seen bar patrons go apesh*t over guitar playing they love.

Remember Albert Collins?

He did it pretty much every night.


dc

Doesn't make me uncomfortable.

Regarding playing, it's just not true. If your sole purpose is to reach the audience, then sure. Not everybody plays for the audience. Most people, I would argue, play for their own enjoyment and challenge.

[DC1]

Originally Posted by Gas-man

Total apples and oranges.

Albert Collins was a legendary, touring guitar player who played to 80% other guitar players every night. I saw him too.

Did you do an actual survey? Guitarists vs non-guitarists?

If not, I don't accept your appraisal. Ever notice how many women went to his shows, and loved him as much as the guys? Think they are all blues players too? It's silly to say "oh, they're all players". He could win over anyone, player or non-player because he made a point of winning them over. And he did so with a quite limited musical vocabulary.

But there is a real difference between him and many of us. He cared about entertaining his audience. Many of us either think we just bleed art, and they are lucky to have us, or we are too insecure and unprepared to entertain the public. (and the former is often a cover for the latter).

I have played in bars where I deliberately tried to engage and entertain the audience, and gotten an instant overwhelmingly positive reaction from people who were talking and drinking. Audiences LOVE discovering a great new band and great playing is part of that, but first you have to care about the audience.

dc

[DC1]

Originally Posted by zztomato

Doesn't make me uncomfortable.

Regarding playing, it's just not true. If your sole purpose is to reach the audience, then sure. Not everybody plays for the audience. Most people, I would argue, play for their own enjoyment and challenge.

Which is why they usually end up with no audience.

dc

[Jimmy James]

Originally Posted by shane88

yes it is

No it isn't. There are other things involved in addition to being "The Feel guy." Having varying ranges of musical expression (chops) are important as well.

There's nothing more annoying than the feel guy who has to step off the stage because he can't hang with knowledgable players, then whines about how one note means more than a million. Tell that to a flamenco player or Pat Martino.

[zztomato]

Originally Posted by DC1

Which is why they usually end up with no audience.

dc

Whatever. The point is, who is to judge?

From a practical point of view, I'm totally with you. When I play out the audience is my prime target. But, I know a lot of guys that just do their thing for fun at home and, IMO, do very cool stuff despite not being all that palatable to an audience. Again, this goes back to my first post directed at the Berklee Prof who said; "you can either play or you cant". These pronouncements just make no sense when we are talking about something so subjective.

[voodoosound]

Originally Posted by zztomato

Whatever. The point is, who is to judge?

From a practical point of view, I'm totally with you. When I play out the audience is my prime target. But, I know a lot of guys that just do their thing for fun at home and, IMO, do very cool stuff despite not being all that palatable to an audience. Again, this goes back to my first post directed at the Berklee Prof who said; "you can either play or you cant". These pronouncements just make no sense when we are talking about something so subjective.

What's subjective about being able to play an instrument or not being able to play one? You either can or can not. Some people do it better than others. A player that does not play well or is so abstract in his approach that no one can bare to listen has no audience.

Would you apply the same logic to your mechanic? Of course not. He can either fix your car or he can not. And please don't tell me how it's somehow different because it's art.

Or I'll have to use the example of a martial artist that can either fight or can not.

[voodoosound]

Originally Posted by DC1

Which is why they usually end up with no audience.

dc

Yes...EXACTLY!

[greggorypeccary]

Originally Posted by Gas-man

Hmmm...dunno about this.

I rarely see audiences respond to bar players' playing, even when they are killing.

They respond to the song, but not the guitar playing.

I think the OP is making a good point though. There has been what I call an intellectualization of sucking taking place over the last 20 years or so, where some guys learn a very little, then use that very little and want credit for not playing what they never had.

Blues has been a godsend to expensive equipment manufacturers because all you need is feel, right? Oh, and some super expensive stuff.

Dueling threads on TGP! Who'd have thunk it?

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/sho...d.php?t=811288

Though I do agree with the point on "intellectualization of sucking", that seems to be running rampant everywhere these days.

[SteveO]

Originally Posted by Jimmy James

There's nothing more annoying than the feel guy who has to step off the stage because he can't hang with knowledgable players, then whines about how one note means more than a million. Tell that to a flamenco player or Pat Martino.

Actually, there is one thing more annoying: The "feel" guy who DOESN'T step down when he should, and keeps on noodling in his own little world oblivious to the music going on around him.

[Gas-man]

Originally Posted by DC1

I have played in bars where I deliberately tried to engage and entertain the audience, and gotten an instant overwhelmingly positive reaction from people who were talking and drinking. Audiences LOVE discovering a great new band and great playing is part of that, but first you have to care about the audience.

dc

It aint 1975 no mo'.

I play in bars just about every week and regardless of what you do on guitar most people don't give a damn. They will respond to the SONGS but they don't care about the wankin'.

I still do it, but still...

[Brian D]

Originally Posted by Derek Q

Is that better than players who have much and make the most out of what they've got?

It isn't better, it's exactly the same. Making the most of what you have, to me, means getting the most mileage from both your abilities and your limitations -- whatever they may be.

Yes, you can use your limitations too. Often we do our best creation when we're trying to work around them.

[Mandoboy]

Originally Posted by zztomato

Again, this goes back to my first post directed at the Berklee Prof who said; "you can either play or you cant". These pronouncements just make no sense when we are talking about something so subjective.

I think you might have read too much into my opinion here- to spell it out:

There'll always be someone to rain on your parade, whether it's some random poster on a forum or someone in a club, or a reviewer, or some neighbor who overhears you. I agree with The Sex Pistols- never mind the bollocks (or the begrudgers). The great steel guitarist Jerry Byrd usually responded to gear questions with "If you can play, it doesn't matter. If you can't play, it doesn't matter."

It's not up to me or anyone else to decide if you can play or not, but since we are talking about chops or lack thereof, I suppose there is such a thing as not being able to play and making good music (I happen to love The Shaggs) and vice versa- and all this is just opinion, and if you think it elitist, have at it!