is it (OD) really "all about the mids"?

[coolhand78]

in a recent interview i saw on youtube, Joe Bonamassa said "...it's all about the mids..."

I recently took delivery of a new Nik Huber Orca... click here for those who arent familiar...

I've always been a strat player... and for the last 2 years i've pretty much played my Black EJ Strat exclusively... and as such have based the tonne of pedals i've purchased around that sound... finally settling on a timmy, BK Butler Tube Driver, EP3 or Clinch EP Pre & Providence Delay 80's among others... click here for my Pedalboard

but now that i've got a Humbucker equipped guitar the settings on the pedals/amp just dont seem to get along the way i'd like...

So I got a KOT v4 and dialed it in to be the OD for the Orca... after spending pretty much the last 3 days solid playing it and fiddling with all my pedals going back and forth it seems to me the one thing that i'm missing is MIDS...

my amp is a 66 bassman that i run into a 2x12 with scumback H55/H75's, and as such doesnt have a mid knob (just vol, treble and bass)... characteristics of these pedals but i'd like to ad mids in someway to them...
would an EQ pedal be the way to go here...?

is mids really the key to a good OD sound???

for reference my favorite tones are Cream's Wheels of Fire Live, EJ's Live From ACL '88, Robben Ford and the Blue Line ("the brother" in particular) and the more recent David Gilmour stuff (On an Island, Remember that night, GDansk etc)

what are your thoughts on how MIDS effect Overdrive? sorry for the rant...

[ChorusCrackpot]

Originally Posted by coolhand78

in a recent interview i saw on youtube, Joe Bonamassa said "...it's all about the mids..."

I recently took delivery of a new Nik Huber Orca... click here for those who arent familiar...

I've always been a strat player... and for the last 2 years i've pretty much played my Black EJ Strat exclusively... and as such have based the tonne of pedals i've purchased around that sound... finally settling on a timmy, BK Butler Tube Driver, EP3 or Clinch EP Pre & Providence Delay 80's among others... click here for my Pedalboard

but now that i've got a Humbucker equipped guitar the settings on the pedals/amp just dont seem to get along the way i'd like...

So I got a KOT v4 and dialed it in to be the OD for the Orca... after spending pretty much the last 3 days solid playing it and fiddling with all my pedals going back and forth it seems to me the one thing that i'm missing is MIDS...

my amp is a 66 bassman that i run into a 2x12 with scumback H55/H75's, and as such doesnt have a mid knob (just vol, treble and bass)... characteristics of these pedals but i'd like to ad mids in someway to them...
would an EQ pedal be the way to go here...?

is mids really the key to a good OD sound???

for reference my favorite tones are Cream's Wheels of Fire Live, EJ's Live From ACL '88, Robben Ford and the Blue Line ("the brother" in particular) and the more recent David Gilmour stuff (On an Island, Remember that night, GDansk etc)

what are your thoughts on how MIDS effect Overdrive? sorry for the rant...

Mids affect the overdrive in many different ways.

I use a Mesa/Boogie MarkIV amp head for my overdrive, rather than pedals. But the same principles still apply.

When I use a high gain sound, I crank up the midrange on my amp, use EL34 valves in the poweramp section, and engage various switches on the amp that accentuate certain parts of the midrange spectrum. This allows the natural prominent midrange character of my guitar to punch through strongly, particularly the other mids which carry across a stage very well- so it can be heard clearly, particularly amongst other instruments.

The lower mids are what keeps the guitar tone full and deep, particularly when the signal is distorted. Otherwise there is no depth to the tone, and will just sound buzzy and lifeless.

Yet, due to the inherent large amount of midrange character of my amp, I also apply a bit of a 'mid-scoop' by dipping the 750 Hz frequency band a bit in the internal graphic EQ. Otherwise, 750 Hz tends to "smother" the sound of the treble frequencies being clipped, i.e. dampens the aggressive crunchy sound.

In other cases though, the central mids are important for a soaring, smooth lead tone (e.g. Santana).


Mids influence your distorted tone more than any other. And the main reason is- because the electric guitar is a naturally midrangey instrument!

[catalinbread]

Originally Posted by coolhand78

is mids really the key to a good OD sound???


what are your thoughts on how MIDS effect Overdrive? sorry for the rant...

It is all about the mids... Clean or OD tones. Knowing that you need them and how to dial them to sit in the mix live and recorded is critical. The guitar is a midrange instrument. As such it is a vocal instrument (the human voice is for the most part a midrange instrument too), thus expressive in a similar way, which is why it has been popular for so long (much for the same reason the c-melody and tenor saxes were so popular before it).

Don't get me wrong I think there is merit to scooped mids, hyped bass, and rounded highs. Good for low volume playing by yourself, and fun! If somebody takes this sound onstage, they can't expect their guitar to project more than 4 feet from the stage and fall to the ground washed out by cymbals and bass guitar.

just my two cents.

[spentron]

Switching from single coils to humbuckers will change the structure. You're starting with a more mid-focused sound, perfect for slamming the dirt with mids. However you may want more bass and treble, less mids set on your amp to compensate for the sound of the pickup somewhat. As long as there is no distortion, these are complementary functions acting on the same signal tone. However, as soon as distortion is introduced between these points, the pickup tone and what the amp tone controls work on becomes different.

Mids are important but realize a few things. Some portions of the signal chain strongly emphasize mids, especially pickups and speakers, somewhat the amplifying portion of the amp and perhaps even the string vibration itself. On the other hand, the popular tone stacks in amplifiers often have no mid-boost capability and scoop the mids a lot even when the knobs are set to the center, to compensate for all the other mid boosts.

Treble is important to excitement, and actual bass gives more warmth. The best clean sounds have plenty of these. To some extent, a flat-response distortion stuck in the normal signal chain will sound mid-scooped.

The desirability of a mid-boost OD is partially that mids are desirable in final sound, but it's not necessarily boosting the mids that much. With some amp settings, what actually comes out is fairly flat. There is a boost of bass and treble just from distorting. It's output is more like a humbucker pickup spectrum.

The bass-treble tone controls of the Bassman are the same as a mid-control tone stack except with mids pre-set to a mid-low level. Even with the mid control, you can't get a flat response just by cranking the mid control, the treble and bass must be set low or off. You can do the same thing on the Bassman. The mid controls are more a way to avoid the volume loss of this arrangement, athough they also change the breakpoints for bass and treble, since with mids up the bass and treble will have to be turned up more to have an effect, and they operate different then.

This isn't really an answer as much as discussion, sorry, but maybe it gives a bit more info to work with. It seems that most people just get used to humbuckers or single coils and how to get what they want from them, and switching is equally awkward in both directions.

[jchan]

Humbuckers will have a different EQ response than single coils. This is part of the debate of why people like different pedals. Part of the reason is the guitar they are using.

Also, playing solo at home may be a very different setup than what you need at a gig. I think the best approach is to learn to listen carefully to what you believe you are missing in the sound EQ wise and then find the right pedal to help you.

I like tube screamers for their mid emphasis. I believe they help you cut in the mix. Certain pedals like Xotic BB preamp, have a Treble and Bass Control to help you tailor your EQ a bit more than the standard TS type pedal.

Try some different settings on your pedals with your new guitar but realize that what works at home may not be right at the show where you are competing EQ wise with drums, cymbals and a bass guitar.

[sector9]

Catalinbread formula no. 5 is one of the best pedals for a fender amp i have ever heard! Thanks Catalinbread!!!

[Lolaviola]

I believe that Fender amps w/ treble and bass controls have a midrange cap in there somewhere, essentially pre-set midrange. You can change the value of this cap to achieve more mids.

Yeah, it's all about mids, but you can get "more" mids by turning down the bass a bit.

[Marble]

when i was a kid i didn't know anything except overdriven lead tones sounded the best with the mids dialed high, the bass low and the treble a little below the mids. That was just for me. Of course another great tone is the scooped sound with lots of bass and treble, it can work well with different sounds to get some nasty tones.

[hacker]

I think the scooped sound is better for rhythm, when you are chugging along on the low strings anyway, but for leads, I hate the scooped mids sound.

[freaksho]

i grew up with classic rock and classic metal, so pretty much Gibson and Marshall. all mids. i don't much care for scooped od tone. the scooped eq can be nice for cleans tho.

and btw you spell "ton" funny.

[dreadheadhaha]

I found my best OD sounds when I started running my old bassman and champ with bass and treble controls around 3 and turning the volume up to compensate. The OD sounds became much smoother with the 'boost' (for lack of more accurate description) in mids. I use both SC and HB equipped guitars and coil-split often.

[ClinchFX]

Originally Posted by dreadheadhaha

I found my best OD sounds when I started running my old bassman and champ with bass and treble controls around 3 and turning the volume up to compensate. The OD sounds became much smoother with the 'boost' (for lack of more accurate description) in mids. I use both SC and HB equipped guitars and coil-split often.

Exactly Cutting Bass and Treble and turning volume up very effectively creates a mid boost.

[Johnnytone]

Originally Posted by Lolaviola

I believe that Fender amps w/ treble and bass controls have a midrange cap in there somewhere, essentially pre-set midrange. You can change the value of this cap to achieve more mids.

Or just get rid of the cap and add the proper value/taper pot. I did that to my old Bassman. Simple.

[steveb]

Yes, I think mids do play an impartant part in OD sounds. Too much & it sounds like a cardboard box, too little & it loses all girth.

Has your Bassman been modded in any way? If your bass channel is stock, try using both channels. Turn on the bass channel's deep switch, & adjust the volume, treble & bass to taste. The bass channel's treble control is voiced a lot lower than the normal channel's treble control. It's similar to a midrange control. In essence, using both channels is almost like having a 4 band EQ. Need more highs, turn up the normal channel. Need more lows or mids, turn up the bass channel.

I have both channel's treble @ 4.5 & bass @ 7. Volume on the bass channel around 3 or slightly higher, & the normal channel around 2.5. This is prety loud. All of these may change slightly depending on the room. I'm playing through a single 12 open backed cab with a Texas Heat speaker. Those settings with pedals give me everything from Hendrix to SRV to EJ, although my playing leaves much to be desired.

[heavysoul]

hmmm aren't you going to get a bit more mids with a HB guitar??